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The issue
Compared to Korea where there are regulations against excessive public bad manner and crude ceremonies, will the western competitive RTS scene allow such behavior just because it may make the game more interesting?
My thoughts:
I was musing around with the idea that StarCraft 2 might actually make its mark in competitive gaming in the West, at least being on recognition with "competitive games" such as Halo or MW2. By recognition, I at least mean that the general population is aware that StarCraft 2 has a competitive scene with big money tourneys. No more of "omg in korea its like their national sport" in every article written by mainstream gaming blogs.
But if you compare big games like Halo, MW2, Counter-Strike, and even competitive WoW, you can definitely notice that these players have a lot more of a rage and BM personality. Of course we've all experienced extreme frustration and rage quit some of our SC games, but professional players in modern competitive FPS games openly display this in a public tournament.
Also, consider that American audiences are different from our fellow Koreans in terms of cultural behaviors as well. The general American audiences want big personalities and big talk with flashy stages and pre-game trash talk. Though Koreans do have flashy stages and insane intros and over the top ceremonies from time to time, for a competition you can see that the players display themselves in a humble manner with handshakes and bows before each match.
My concern is that though I admit the world may never nerd out with the rest of us and raise StarCraft 2 to the realm of high competitive art, a flashy over the top bad manner big personality extravaganza is something I fear will shed an even more disturbing light on what competitive gaming is all about.
For discussion:
Input from players around the world is greatly appreciated on this matter. What do you think will happen if StarCraft 2 really blows up in the West? Essentially WWE for gamers, or a respectable competitive scene?
Note: I admit the most I've seen with competitive FPS games is random clips on youtube and random matches. I encourage anyone to correct me on any misconceptions I have, whether it be competitive FPS or western and asian culture
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I like flash and pomp but I also appreciate honor among competitors of any sport.
I'm all about a confident sportsman who feels he is the best and wants to prove it but when it goes to the level of trash talking the other competitors then I do not like it.
In my opinion being a good sportsman can include confidence etc but making others look worse so you look better is never called for in any culture. It may be more acceptable in the west but that doesn't make it a good thing.
I will never root for a jerk, and someone being the 'villain' doesn't add entertainment value to me personally.
I think Husky's interview of InControl is a perfect example of how someone can be confident, even arrogant but its silly in a good way and outside of his (very obvious) joking about shoes and europeans it was done in fun. Great example imo of a sportsman being competative and even talking a little trash but not denigrating anyone seriously and not treating others like crap to look better or tougher.
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I think the level of professionalism will rely heavily on the organizations who promote SC2 as an e-sport. If they want to play up the drama it would be good of them to handle it like WWE or such, with lots of trash talking between competitors so that stories outside of the game can develop easier. If they want to make it look like a real sport such as the NFL or NBA then they would do well to limit the amount of BM and other bad press that players get. Even if the players themselves are BM they're not going to specifically show it in a game if doing so will risk them getting fined for lots of money. Any professional sport does of course have its fair share of BM, however it's up to the press and the organizations running it to determine how prevalent that kind of BM is out there to be easily accessed by the public.
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Have you ever considered that the Korean esports scene is influenced by its (Confucious) culture? Western culture is much more open and flamboyant, for better or worse. Just because esports is big in Korea don't assume thats the only model that will work.
Just let the scene evolve naturally, I can think of serveral occasions where series have been made 100 times more exiting because of the feud between the players. Drama is exiting, and thus could be a force for good in the western esports scene.
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On April 25 2010 08:13 Reach_UK wrote:
Have you ever considered that the Korean esports scene is influenced by its (Confucious) culture? Western culture is much more open and flamboyant, for better or worse. Just because esports is big in Korea don't assume thats the only model that will work.
Just let the scene evolve naturally, I can think of serveral occasions where series have been made 100 times more exiting because of the feud between the players. Drama is exiting, and thus could be a force for good in the western esports scene.
I agree that drama will inevitably exist no matter the location or scene. However, I just thought it'd be a shame if the reputation of mostly positive competition built over years and years by the community was immediately associated with over-aggressive drama and bad manner.
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I don't see what the problem with this would be. I'd be more worried about Sc2 actually becoming that competitive in foreign countries before worrying about how the players act. I wouldn't mind if people talk smack, it makes things hilarious (look at the Uvic rap/diss parodies, those are comedy gold!)
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the only way sc2 will become an esport in the "western" scene, is if it gets backed by legitimate, or major companies. It is the reason why sc is so big in korea, the teams are owned by major corporations
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you forgot to mention brawl for the rage/bm part, at mlg orlando ally was raging that he lost the brawl tourney.
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On April 25 2010 08:24 biology]major wrote:
the only way sc2 will become an esport in the "western" scene, is if it gets backed by legitimate, or major companies. It is the reason why sc is so big in korea, the teams are owned by major corporations
^
+1
I mean as competitive as other games may be, like Counterstrike, Halo, Smash brothers, etc etc, they don't have that "professional" backing like a sports team or something. There's a huge difference between a competitive community with many tournaments when compared to how in Korea matches are aired, there are specific stadiums just for starcraft, there's an official organization looking over, and large companies (I mean Korea Air this time, seriously) sponsoring sanctioned events.
However, although the pro gaming scene in the west may or may not be as "professional" as in Korea,it doesn't mean its worse. After all games are for fun and enjoyment as well. I'm sure when/if Korea adopts SC2 it will still be highly sponsored with coaches etc etc much like it is now. Watching Korean SC tournies just feels more "official." and I do hope that SC2 will carry this sort of aura as it progresses
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I believe internet or "nerd" culture in general will have a much larger effect on this in the western world than cultural differences between countries. When it comes to politeness, I'd say Asia is a different animal, but when it's the United States and Europe most of what will be acceptable will stem from the culture surrrounding the game, rather than what is the norm in the individual countries.
Then again I have a hard time seeing the immensly commercialized spectacle that is US sports happening in Sweden where I live, where it seems sports fans in particular and people in general dissapprove of this type flashiness and pomp. Also Sweden is a small country, and there might be an insufficient nerd problem. Not per capita, because we have a comparatively high nerd to regular person ratio, but in real numbers. It might make it tricky for big events to attract sufficient crowds.
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It depends on how the sponsors set it up. Hockey and WWE are set up in ways that encourage this sort of 'BM'. (Strange to use it out of context) If let's say, AMD sponsors it, and makes it seem very professional, it would be different from if a different corporation sponsors it and portrays it in a different light.
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On April 25 2010 08:46 Froadac wrote:
It depends on how the sponsors set it up. Hockey and WWE are set up in ways that encourage this sort of 'BM'. (Strange to use it out of context) If let's say, AMD sponsors it, and makes it seem very professional, it would be different from if a different corporation sponsors it and portrays it in a different light.
Well you would have to consider that if a corporation like AMD wants to draw more attention to the scene, they may allow or encourage crazy bm trash talk =O
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Canada5565 Posts
Korean pros are that, professionals, and they act like it. Classy and baller.
Some teenage nerds in the U.S. raging over losing something that requires minimal skill doesn't make it entertaining imo.
Jaedong's killer stare > any bm ceremony/yelling
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Uh in america BM isn't thought of as bad. Really trash talk is VERYYYYYYYY common among competitive gaming in NA most notably MLG. Really though its regulated, but its apart of the game. If you get bothered by it you shouldn't be competiting in the first place. Everyones friendly and people still talk trash. I dont really understand why in SC theres a thing called bm anyway.... If your competiting of course theres trash talk.
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Until the stigma of nerds = games goes away, i dont see e sports happening outside of Asia.
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On April 25 2010 08:52 OHtRUe wrote:
Uh in america BM isn't thought of as bad. Really trash talk is VERYYYYYYYY common among competitive gaming in NA most notably MLG. Really though its regulated, but its apart of the game. If you get bothered by it you shouldn't be competiting in the first place. Everyones friendly and people still talk trash. I dont really understand why in SC theres a thing called bm anyway.... If your competiting of course theres trash talk.
Of course. Korean progamers return to their houses and probably complain about a loss or act bad manner, but I'm considering the public display of the game.
Yes, there will be trash talk in competition and it is unavoidable. It may even happen live in a big finals tournament. However, what I'm concerned about is if this trash talk will be elevated and praised by organizations running the tournaments - like if you don't trash talk, you're not playing the full game.
Everyone got worked up over the Flash overlay during the memorable and atrociously run MSL finals between Flash and Jaedong since people thought it brought e-sports to the realm of WWE. This is what I'm personally against in terms of developing competitive games in the west.
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Canada11475 Posts
If, (that's a big if) there is e-sports outside of Korea, it will probably have more trash talking. But I would really hope it would never turn into WWE. I think it's idiotic with those grown men- now consider it coming from nerdy teens?
Essentially this:
On April 25 2010 08:52 Xxio wrote:
Korean pros are that, professionals, and they act like it. Classy and baller.
Some teenage nerds in the U.S. raging over losing something that requires minimal skill doesn't make it entertaining imo.
Jaedong's killer stare > any bm ceremony/yelling
I really think people like Tasteless and Day[9] would do far more e-sports then any raging teen. The subculture of gaming may think the trash talking is tough stuff, but I think it will always be a very insular community and never have a chance to break out.
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Ummm yeah if by bad mannered you mean trash talking, than it is very common amongst competitive US gaming. But the trash talking isn't really meant as something serious and it is for most part a way for teams to get themselves pumped up. "THESE GUYS TRASH, CMON GUYS". That's very common. The fighting game scene does it a lot and its our way of having fun. If you take it personal and feel like crying than you must be new. Also FPS =/= Fighting =/= RTS. You'll find that in FPS trash talking is more common amongst many of the scenes simply because of the type of game it is.
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On April 25 2010 08:56 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 08:52 OHtRUe wrote:
Uh in america BM isn't thought of as bad. Really trash talk is VERYYYYYYYY common among competitive gaming in NA most notably MLG. Really though its regulated, but its apart of the game. If you get bothered by it you shouldn't be competiting in the first place. Everyones friendly and people still talk trash. I dont really understand why in SC theres a thing called bm anyway.... If your competiting of course theres trash talk. Of course. Korean progamers return to their houses and probably complain about a loss or act bad manner, but I'm considering the public display of the game. Yes, there will be trash talk in competition and it is unavoidable. It may even happen live in a big finals tournament. However, what I'm concerned about is if this trash talk will be elevated and praised by organizations running the tournaments - like if you don't trash talk, you're not playing the full game. Everyone got worked up over the Flash overlay during the memorable and atrociously run MSL finals between Flash and Jaedong since people thought it brought e-sports to the realm of WWE. This is what I'm personally against in terms of developing competitive games in the west.
Uh i dont know if you know about MLG, but theres trash talk every single major tournament with major sponsors.. Take in mind though that the Officials arn't forcing them to trash talk it's that there competitive side is showing and there letting it out.The main point though is that its pretty hard to trash talk in SC (unless you litterally type it out) so i dont think it will ever be a problem for SC in general in the NA scene.
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Yeah, FPS players are generally low-life trash. =/ There should be regulations prohibiting BM in public tournaments. If we want SC2 to be a professional sport in the west, then we should hope that it will be run professionally.
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EPT
