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Well I see that everyone is just dodging the points I made in concerns to Trash talk vs professionalism. BTW Comparing FPS players skill level to Starcraft is like comparing apples and oranges, there just totally different. There are some truly skilled, amazing, and mature fps players out there. For that matter is watching all these Korean players avoid saying they think there team is going to win handily a sign of maturity or just a scared child mentality? I'm sure there are examples of both. Being cocky and immature does not dictate skill, thats just false! It may hold some statistical advantage but will never be true down to the individual. IM SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE STARCRAFT ELITISM THOUGH, all these people thinking that the top starcraft players are just more skilled in general, than all other gamers is foolish!
There are fps teams that practice 14 hours a day, have incredible teamwork and at times seem telepathic in predicting there opponents movements. Go watch some pro halo players vod's! Go watch the mlg championships for the last few seasons before you judge there skill level so harshly.
BM isn't whats gonna hurt SC2 as a western esport ELITISM IS! I can't think of a bigger turnoff to fans and future players.
Obviously, top starcraft players have way better multitasking than an FPS player but to say there just all around superior is sickening. And believe me there is some multitasking involved in fps, most top players have to keep track of spawn times for weapons, how there positioned and how the opponent is positioned affects player's respawns, keep track of there teamates locations so they dont get caught alone, while effectively communicating these things to there team and trying to kill the person shooting at them. And it's all lightning fast decision making.
DEATH TO ELITISM!! theres no bigger turnoff than a complete snob
Also there is a lot more on the line at FPS these teams play in tournaments for a lot more money, they pay to go to them and to enter, and they play for 6 hours nonstop in the tournaments, often much longer if they do good, so to say they lack mental fortitude or endurance or so many other important skill is obviously an opinion born out of pure ignorance.
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Activision tries to market C&C VoDs like the WWE. Though it comes across sounding rediculous and forced too me. What do they think injecting competative gaming with testosterone will make it cool? I think the commentators have a lot of influence on the feel of any sport, and the players add to it too during interviews.
I like Diggity's commentary style the most so far for e-sports. A lot of the time it can come across timid like golf when there's no action going on, but he explains each player's moves in depth and the possibilities along with it which subtly pulls you into the head of these players sometimes. Then when one of the players does something special, like a crazy scarab shot or lurker trap going off, his voice increases 100x in intensity, without screaming into his mic and nerdgasming like a lot of other commentators. and I think that's exactly how you should be commentating this kind of thing.
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Who cares if people are BM?
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Take a look at boxing, even thou it was kinda popular, after mohammed ali stepped in with all his trash talking, it actually made the sport more popular. I'm not saying i like trash talk but it does bring attention.
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On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad.
Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap.
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The King of Kong (2007) the most successful video game documentary ever was based around the feud between two players. I mean there's not much to watch when you see someone playing Donkey Kong but this was very entertaining. There's no story if its just a game. People are the story, people are what the others come to watch not the game. The game is an excuse. You want to watch the "people" who are better then you. Nobody would show up to watch two computers play against each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_king_of_kong
Watching this is really eye opening too. It's shocking how every generation repeats itself in the exact same manner only with different games.
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On April 25 2010 11:08 segfix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad. Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap.
Where do I say that every single top level player is always BM free? I even say that all top level players tend to BM all the time. What I am referring to are the general tendencies. The entire reason this thread exists is the enormous difference between "top level console" and "top level RTS" manner. Even when you remove the social factors that go with being from different countries, the kind of manner you see in top American SC1 players is radically different from that seen in top American Halo. Now explain to me how what I am saying is incorrect. The whole point of this thread is the worrying going on about the manners in SC2 changing from how they were in SC1. My argument is that they will not change. The best RTS players will continue to show themselves for who they tend to be. And these top RTS players will generally speaking be much more mannered than the top Halo or whatever players.
You make it sound like I am the only person pointing out the differences between the two communities. The entire thread is BASED on that being generally accepted as true. Where my opinion comes in is my rationalization of why this is. To me, looking at how the type of mannerisms and conduct seen in top level console games is also seen on a "above average, but not professional" level of RTS, it just makes sense.
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If any game is to become widespread, it will have to have organized rules and not be BM. The game examples you gave are not anywhere near what Starcraft is to Korea. In order for the game to be accepted by the general public, it is expected that the players act and look mature. It's that way for even the most violent sports. You may think BM is funny and all, but it distinguishes it between some kid entertainment and something to be taken seriously.
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any decent self respecting tournament/league event will have rules against BM.
every culture has some people who will be BM. most will never be good, the few that are must learn to constrain themselves or will suffer the consequences.
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Once again, I guess I need to bold it..
Who cares if people BM?
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I think some levels of BM aren't bad, but at the same time BM can be very detrimental to a league trying to appear "professional." If players are cursing at each at the end of the game and that chat is being publicized to the world that won't be good. At the same time, I know there are people out there who wish Koreans were more publicly vocal, instead of secretly. Things should definitely be regulated during the broadcast and fines, etc. should be in place in case something were to happen. Players should behave professionally, but shouldn't be denied a personality or the right to be human. Smack/trash talk, bm is one thing, but being vulgar and cursing each other is something else.
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I don't think it matters as long as there are clear rules and they are enforced.
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On April 25 2010 10:02 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 09:55 Reborn8u wrote: Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company. I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican. So, following in the footsteps of a solid e-sports model with well mannered and respectable players is unAmerican? MLG's system is a joke compared to the OSL and MSL, I say we take after the more successful of the two gaming organizations..
How are they not well mannered? They all shake hands at the end of each series instead of saying GG through the computer. Seriously if you think trash talk is bad shows how incredibly well mannered this community it is and it shows because how boring the scene is. There was a reason FBH got popular and it was because he had a personal edge and isn't a robot unlike all the other korean players.
If you think good ol trash talk is bad i'm kinda wondering if you ever played sports at all as a kid or had any sort of siblings or close friends? Seriously theres a reason why its called competition and when you compete theres usually trash talk around because of the emotion involved.
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LOL.
Elitism. Well, I mean, if you're a starcraft fan-girl, it's not like you're going to be rooting for top CS players more than top SC players.
That's just a part of loving the game: championing the players who know how to play so well at the game that you love so much.
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On April 25 2010 12:15 OHtRUe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 10:02 Endymion wrote:On April 25 2010 09:55 Reborn8u wrote: Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company. I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican. So, following in the footsteps of a solid e-sports model with well mannered and respectable players is unAmerican? MLG's system is a joke compared to the OSL and MSL, I say we take after the more successful of the two gaming organizations.. How are they not well mannered? They all shake hands at the end of each series instead of saying GG through the computer. Seriously if you think trash talk is bad shows how incredibly well mannered this community it is and it shows because how boring the scene is. There was a reason FBH got popular and it was because he had a personal edge and isn't a robot unlike all the other korean players. If you think good ol trash talk is bad i'm kinda wondering if you ever played sports at all as a kid or had any sort of siblings or close friends? Seriously theres a reason why its called competition and when you compete theres usually trash talk around because of the emotion involved.
Your argument regarding FBH would have some level of merit if FBH was the most popular player. However, FBH is not the most popular player, and it turns out that the players with the best performances tend to be the most popular. So there goes that. FBH got popular, sure, no one denies that. Nor do people deny the entertainment factor that Idra contributes. There isn't much harm in there being the occasional BM guy or someone who dances after matches. But if everyone is like that, it loses credibility and people lose respect for the sport.
I think the real issue here is that you simply can't grasp the fact that there are so many people prefer strong play over strong emotions. If you want to watch trash talk and disputes, go watch a reality show on MTV. And once again, no one is saying zero bad manner. What people are voicing their concern over is it reaching the disgusting levels that it has reached in the console communities. The console community is built primarily by a much younger audience. As people grow older, we tend to not be so entertained by people yelling at each other and being rude. It gets old. Its dull. There is only so much you can hear. Whereas the intricacies of strategy and play often times feel infinite. That is where the real entertainment comes from for the older and more mature audience. But like I said, I love Idra and FBH being a part of the community. They add a great spice. But a 32 person tournament of nothing but Idra clones? Good lord, please no!
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On April 25 2010 11:03 Reborn8u wrote:
Well I see that everyone is just dodging the points I made in concerns to Trash talk vs professionalism. BTW Comparing FPS players skill level to Starcraft is like comparing apples and oranges, there just totally different. There are some truly skilled, amazing, and mature fps players out there.
I really hope you don't mean on the consoles.
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You should always respect your opponent, regardless of sport or activity, because without them you are nothing. You cannot call yourself the greatest player of Starcraft, if you have no-one to play with.
It's interesting you bring up the WWE and their use of exaggerated promos to increase feud potential and interest. The UFC is obviously it's biggest competition but it's continually stated that the UFC would love to be able to create feuds and stories, in the way the WWE is capable of. Obviously it's never truly possible as it's real but if it were capable, it would draw a far bigger crowd. Brock Lesnar gets major heat and is a HUGE monetary success because he's a former wrestler and has a great story, about him proving himself as a real fighter. The majority of fighters aren't like that though, the same can be applied to all other fighting sports.
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Banning ceremonies was the worst thing KESPA ever did.
Let the players have fun and show their personality.
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On April 25 2010 12:02 bokchoi wrote:
I think some levels of BM aren't bad, but at the same time BM can be very detrimental to a league trying to appear "professional." If players are cursing at each at the end of the game and that chat is being publicized to the world that won't be good. At the same time, I know there are people out there who wish Koreans were more publicly vocal, instead of secretly. Things should definitely be regulated during the broadcast and fines, etc. should be in place in case something were to happen. Players should behave professionally, but shouldn't be denied a personality or the right to be human. Smack/trash talk, bm is one thing, but being vulgar and cursing each other is something else.
Yeah all the trash talk sure damages football's popularity in the US
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EPT
