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On April 25 2010 12:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:15 OHtRUe wrote:On April 25 2010 10:02 Endymion wrote:On April 25 2010 09:55 Reborn8u wrote: Crabman123 April 25 2010 09:44. Posts 35 PM Profile Quote
On April 25 2010 09:25 Reborn8u wrote:
OMG what are you people on??!? Trash Talk exists in EVERY professional sport. You've never heard of the 1st baseman taunting the runner on his base? Or a basketball player saying "Nice Shot" when the other team misses. Or Walshy from halo quoting T2 "I'm the best player in the world" as he kills him and teabags him with a needler. Getting in your opponents head adds more to any competition and rivalries grow because of it. If you don't want to be offended go hide under a rock! I love how people get on Idra for his bm, yet in all his interviews he seems very sarcastic and smiles and laughs a lot, but people take it soooo serious. I hope the trash talk is blatant and harsh. I can't wait to hear some rude New Yorker tell some Korean who his daddy is and where his mom was last night! We're not koreans so why should we try to act like them, you ever noticed how boring most korean interviews are because they're all scared to offend anyone.
Haha do you really think that unless we have our own pro teams that we will not stand a chance against the koreans in high levels of play? We will not get pro teams unless we look very respectable and are a sound investment for a company. I'm not sure what your trying to say because your 1st sentence is just confusing, Look at mlgpro, there is tons of trash talk in mlg, and they have 100,000$ tournaments, have had them broadcast on TV , gave a million dollar 3 year contract to 1 of teams a few years ago, and have sponsors like red bull and dr pepper. We do need pro teams to compete, but people thinking that we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of the Korean system is silly imo and kind of unAmerican. So, following in the footsteps of a solid e-sports model with well mannered and respectable players is unAmerican? MLG's system is a joke compared to the OSL and MSL, I say we take after the more successful of the two gaming organizations.. How are they not well mannered? They all shake hands at the end of each series instead of saying GG through the computer. Seriously if you think trash talk is bad shows how incredibly well mannered this community it is and it shows because how boring the scene is. There was a reason FBH got popular and it was because he had a personal edge and isn't a robot unlike all the other korean players. If you think good ol trash talk is bad i'm kinda wondering if you ever played sports at all as a kid or had any sort of siblings or close friends? Seriously theres a reason why its called competition and when you compete theres usually trash talk around because of the emotion involved. Your argument regarding FBH would have some level of merit if FBH was the most popular player. However, FBH is not the most popular player, and it turns out that the players with the best performances tend to be the most popular. So there goes that. FBH got popular, sure, no one denies that. Nor do people deny the entertainment factor that Idra contributes. There isn't much harm in there being the occasional BM guy or someone who dances after matches. But if everyone is like that, it loses credibility and people lose respect for the sport. I think the real issue here is that you simply can't grasp the fact that there are so many people prefer strong play over strong emotions. If you want to watch trash talk and disputes, go watch a reality show on MTV. And once again, no one is saying zero bad manner. What people are voicing their concern over is it reaching the disgusting levels that it has reached in the console communities. The console community is built primarily by a much younger audience. As people grow older, we tend to not be so entertained by people yelling at each other and being rude. It gets old. Its dull. There is only so much you can hear. Whereas the intricacies of strategy and play often times feel infinite. That is where the real entertainment comes from for the older and more mature audience. But like I said, I love Idra and FBH being a part of the community. They add a great spice. But a 32 person tournament of nothing but Idra clones? Good lord, please no!
Uh the best players in the world in pretty much every single sport of the world trash talk. I don't know where you get this thing that people can be good at the game and not be robots. Seriously if you ever played a FPS you would know why people trash talk because its fun and motivates you to play better if your on the recieving end or your giving it out. Or you could look past esports and look at actual sports and see how everyone talks trash.... Also i think you don't understand that trash talk isn't always 100% heated and serious.
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Whats wrong with BM? Wow, did your parents never teach you kids anything?
You like it when I rape you in a 1v1 and insult you in all sorts of ways? You like it when I pull cheesy plays on you while I act rude and obnoxious? Not everyone is a masochist. Some people prefer a modest, humble attitude in gaming.
Okay yes, we need some rebels and we need some saints on the scene. A certain level of BM is natural and adds some spice to the game, but the fact that people think there's nothing wrong with BM in a professional sport just shows what the world has come to.
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On April 25 2010 11:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 11:08 segfix wrote:On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad. Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap. Where do I say that every single top level player is always BM free? I even say that all top level players tend to BM all the time. What I am referring to are the general tendencies. The entire reason this thread exists is the enormous difference between "top level console" and "top level RTS" manner. Even when you remove the social factors that go with being from different countries, the kind of manner you see in top American SC1 players is radically different from that seen in top American Halo. Now explain to me how what I am saying is incorrect. The whole point of this thread is the worrying going on about the manners in SC2 changing from how they were in SC1. My argument is that they will not change. The best RTS players will continue to show themselves for who they tend to be. And these top RTS players will generally speaking be much more mannered than the top Halo or whatever players. You make it sound like I am the only person pointing out the differences between the two communities. The entire thread is BASED on that being generally accepted as true. Where my opinion comes in is my rationalization of why this is. To me, looking at how the type of mannerisms and conduct seen in top level console games is also seen on a "above average, but not professional" level of RTS, it just makes sense.
And what I'm saying is you and others in this thread are completely clueless about other gaming communities. I saw the fighting game community mentioned several times so I'll use that as an example. Competitive fighting games are played almost exclusively on arcade. This means that top-level players who practice 6+ hours a day are forced to physically interact with each other for long periods of time at arcade halls. This is unlike starcraft, where online play or even lan play can often be very impersonal. So the overall competitive fighting game community is very close-knit and pretty much all the top players are on friendly terms with one another. This allows them to "trash talk" each other with the understanding that it's all done in the spirit of friendly banter and hype. An ignorant outside observer viewing this on youtube would probably misconstrue this as BM. Think of it this way, if player 1 greeted player 2 by saying "sup noob", the situation would be entirely different depending on if they were friends. Now imagine if player 1 was Jangbi and player 2 Stork. I'm sure many of you would throw a fit about it. You guys just need to grow some thicker skin and get over it, that's all.
On April 25 2010 12:59 Xyik wrote:
Whats wrong with BM? Wow, did your parents never teach you kids anything?
You like it when I rape you in a 1v1 and insult you in all sorts of ways? You like it when I pull cheesy plays on you while I act rude and obnoxious? Not everyone is a masochist. Some people prefer a modest, humble attitude in gaming.
Okay yes, we need some rebels and we need some saints on the scene. A certain level of BM is natural and adds some spice to the game, but the fact that people think there's nothing wrong with BM in a professional sport just shows what the world has come to.
Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
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On April 25 2010 13:06 segfix wrote:
Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
Yep, the "Yeah, he was terrible, his mom probably taught him how to play. But I think the problem there was that I was with his mom last night, he probably didn't have enough time to get his retarded fingers into shape, the poor fat faggot" type of interview gets me every time.
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The people who trash talk just look silly to me. Show that you're the best by being the best, not acting like a 2-year-old.
When you play against yourself you start getting better at a much faster pace anyways
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On April 25 2010 13:11 Xyik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 13:06 segfix wrote:
Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
Yep, the "Yeah, he was terrible, his mom probably taught him how to play. But I think the problem there was that I was with his mom last night, he probably didn't have enough time to get his retarded fingers into shape, the poor fat faggot" type of interview gets me every time.
Exaggerate much? If anyone actually said that in an interview, I'd be more disappointed in the lack of wit than the profanity.
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On April 25 2010 13:06 segfix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 11:23 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 11:08 segfix wrote:On April 25 2010 10:38 Mohdoo wrote:On April 25 2010 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:
when you make negative, vast generalizations about ppl "fps players are generally low life trash" I think it's time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out who is bad mannered. Trash Talk IS a part of Professional competition in the west. So your argument is really invalid, every professional sport/game in the west has trash talk. So your saying the Major league baseball, football, basketball, MLG are all unprofessional because they allow trash talk? Either way the popularity of starcraft2 will make it an American Esport, some people will be polite some will bm get used to it and stop trying to dictate your morality on other people. Ever read the 1st amendment of the US constitution ??? Thats what were about! Lead by example but don't force people to do what you feel is right when it doesn't hurt anyone. None of this matters. The only players who will be on stage and stuff at big MLG tournaments will be the top players. Top level RTS players do not behave like "top" Halo players and all those kids. Its simply a completely different level of competition. Sure those players will exist, but the more mature, skilled, mentally advanced players will surpass them. I think the reason that the top level RTS players also just to happen to not be huge flamers is because they are mature people who can take responsibility for their own losses and can approach the game level minded and make advancements that way. The upper level of players in the American Halo and COD or whatever scene...They aren't the same kind of gamer that will be on the top of SC2. They are way below that. They don't have nearly the same level of mental strength and fortitude that top RTS players do. That's why they are immature, and that is why they are worse. The point is that the two tend to go hand in hand. Everyone flames and BMs SOMETIMES, it is a simple matter of frequency. And the top RTS players BM much, much, much less. Its all connected. Consistently bad manner and immaturity go hand in hand with being bad. Manner plz. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude speaks loads more about your emotional immaturity than BM ever will. Also, the fact that Idra is the undisputed top foreigner in SC2 disproves all your self-righteous bullcrap. Where do I say that every single top level player is always BM free? I even say that all top level players tend to BM all the time. What I am referring to are the general tendencies. The entire reason this thread exists is the enormous difference between "top level console" and "top level RTS" manner. Even when you remove the social factors that go with being from different countries, the kind of manner you see in top American SC1 players is radically different from that seen in top American Halo. Now explain to me how what I am saying is incorrect. The whole point of this thread is the worrying going on about the manners in SC2 changing from how they were in SC1. My argument is that they will not change. The best RTS players will continue to show themselves for who they tend to be. And these top RTS players will generally speaking be much more mannered than the top Halo or whatever players. You make it sound like I am the only person pointing out the differences between the two communities. The entire thread is BASED on that being generally accepted as true. Where my opinion comes in is my rationalization of why this is. To me, looking at how the type of mannerisms and conduct seen in top level console games is also seen on a "above average, but not professional" level of RTS, it just makes sense. And what I'm saying is you and others in this thread are completely clueless about other gaming communities. I saw the fighting game community mentioned several times so I'll use that as an example. Competitive fighting games are played almost exclusively on arcade. This means that top-level players who practice 6+ hours a day are forced to physically interact with each other for long periods of time at arcade halls. This is unlike starcraft, where online play or even lan play can often be very impersonal. So the overall competitive fighting game community is very close-knit and pretty much all the top players are on friendly terms with one another. This allows them to "trash talk" each other with the understanding that it's all done in the spirit of friendly banter and hype. An ignorant outside observer viewing this on youtube would probably misconstrue this as BM. Think of it this way, if player 1 greeted player 2 by saying "sup noob", the situation would be entirely different depending on if they were friends. Now imagine if player 1 was Jangbi and player 2 Stork. I'm sure many of you would throw a fit about it. You guys just need to grow some thicker skin and get over it, that's all. Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:59 Xyik wrote:
Whats wrong with BM? Wow, did your parents never teach you kids anything?
You like it when I rape you in a 1v1 and insult you in all sorts of ways? You like it when I pull cheesy plays on you while I act rude and obnoxious? Not everyone is a masochist. Some people prefer a modest, humble attitude in gaming.
Okay yes, we need some rebels and we need some saints on the scene. A certain level of BM is natural and adds some spice to the game, but the fact that people think there's nothing wrong with BM in a professional sport just shows what the world has come to. Yep, the "Maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. I'll just try my best" type of interviews never get old.
To your first point, that makes a lot of sense, thank you for clarifying that. A friend of mine is into the competitive scene for MVC2, and the way you describe it is very similar. I think it is easy, however, to get the (false) impression that I and others had because fighting games and the like are widely played by young kids. Highschool/Junior high kids tend to be jackasses. So when we see them act like that, then competitive fighting game guys talking the same, I suppose we don't give it a second thought. But thank you for correcting me.
For your second point, I think a lot of people should read interviews done in WC3. I am someone who kept up real close with both WC3 and SC1.
WC3 is unique in how the top top Korean/Chinese players are equal to the Europeans. Because of this, they are interviewed just as often. The Korean interviews are just like you have come to expect from SC1. "I will try my best. I will do all I can" blah blah blah. Fucking most boring thing ever. HOWEVER, The Europeans are a completely different story. They'll talk about balance, they'll talk about how Night Elf is fucking imba and stuff like that, yet they are still calm and relaxed. Its very similar to how you describe the fighting game scene. Sure, they say they were really mad about losing. But they also talk about how they feel they could have done better and they just got outplayed. It can really go both ways.
My personal prediction is that the SC2 scene will be almost identical to WC3 in its prime. China = Korea = Europe/USA. The USA very rarely had good players though. I think SC2 will have a lot of good Americans. I think Koreans are only so untouchable right now because they have had the best training conditions for the longest time and they do a good job at keeping it that way. WC3 was different. They couldn't hold their monopoly. But anyway, I'm getting off topic.
Returning to my main point, I think that it is possible to be personable yet respectful. ToD would always say stuff like "Yeah, I lost in the quarter finals, but what can ya do, right? Night Elf is too imba" and then he'd laugh jokingly and continue the interview. And others would say more "nice" things. Then the boring as fuck Koreans that shouldn't even bother being interviewed. It doesn't have to be either yelling obsceneties and racial slurs...or...Koreans. There is an in between, and it was very clearly present during the peak of WC3. I think this will be how SC2 is.
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A lower caliber play where there's a clear rivalry is more entertaining than some uptight/polite duel between super pros.
In the first case, you will pick a player, the agressor or the victim, and root for him up to the end, cheering silently when there's a turn around favoring whoever you picked. The later is just about watching clean execution... Now obviously you want both but emotion as a few already mentionned it is fairly important for the "entertainment" aspect.
E-sport or not I really dont care anyway, too old for this, just playing for FUN.
Edit:
Nice post Mohdoo
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On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
The issue
Compared to Korea where there are regulations against excessive public bad manner and crude ceremonies, will the western competitive RTS scene allow such behavior just because it may make the game more interesting?
With a lot more "scandals" involved in a topic you get lots more viewers, so if the rules are simply left to companies who want to make money they will encourage such stuff. Just look at the devolution of the quality of television ... at least here in Germany. We only had state run TV until 1984 and it was a good time for quality TV. Now we have lots of private channels and they are trying to outdo each other with scandalous shows (nudity, violence and military alway help) while keeping the cost low (lots and lots of repetitions). Back in the "good old days" we never had nudity on TV, but now you can tune in and get naked women posing for phone sex every day and even the "society magazines" are looking for that and show it to us during daytime. The big question is: Has this made our lives better? Not really. Has it made money? Certainly!
On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
competitive WoW
That is one of the things which ruined the game for me, because they had to change the classes so much to make each one of them challenging for competitive gaming, that they totally forgot the main thing: "us against the monsters". Catering to PvP-junkies took a lot of effort and ruined the story.
On April 25 2010 07:52 shindigs wrote:
Also, consider that American audiences are different from our fellow Koreans in terms of cultural behaviors as well. The general American audiences want big personalities and big talk with flashy stages and pre-game trash talk. Though Koreans do have flashy stages and insane intros and over the top ceremonies from time to time, for a competition you can see that the players display themselves in a humble manner with handshakes and bows before each match.
My concern is that though I admit the world may never nerd out with the rest of us and raise StarCraft 2 to the realm of high competitive art, a flashy over the top bad manner big personality extravaganza is something I fear will shed an even more disturbing light on what competitive gaming is all about.
For discussion:
Input from players around the world is greatly appreciated on this matter. What do you think will happen if StarCraft 2 really blows up in the West? Essentially WWE for gamers, or a respectable competitive scene?
Note: I admit the most I've seen with competitive FPS games is random clips on youtube and random matches. I encourage anyone to correct me on any misconceptions I have, whether it be competitive FPS or western and asian culture
Starcraft is no Wrestling and you dont know who is watching and how they react to trash talking. Some might actually mistake that for real and get a false perspective of the whole scene. The easiest example here would be first person shooters and the ever present argument that these games make kids more likely to start a massacre at their school. Lets not have that with Starcraft. Lets keep the behaviour more like that of chess players, friendly and professional, because too much emotion will ruin concentration and wreck the game anyway.
The US-Army already fight their wars as a kind of video game, but real wars should be brutal and bloody, so you dont start them lightly. If a new generation of young people grows up accustomed to fighting wars on a screen they will be more likely to press a button to kill someone from far far away. That should never be taken lightly, but as we all know from practicing the game: The more you practice, the less you have to/will think about certain actions ...
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That's because bad manners are inversely correlated with skills. Foreigners suck and nothing will ever change that fact.
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There isn't a need to keep BM down. There's only a need to remove the anonymity of the internet, and the current Foreign scene does this well enough.
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i think that huge problem will the that korea is a small country united states is a large, this creates problems. 2 there is only one massive main city in south korea, there a serveral in united states. 3 buissnesses are just not willing to throw out so much money to something that people wouldnt just watch on thier television, aka pro sport teams.
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Bad Manner is fun, ads another fun element to the game. Everyone who thinks otherwise can go F*** themselves rofl
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I think of a lot of people don't really understand to what extent behavior can be considered BM.
Disrespecting an opponent and not acknowledging his or her skill is BM. Insulting others is BM. Obviously friendly banter, rivalry and joking is not BM. Expressing opinions in a humble and civilized manner while giving credit to others and treating them the way they would like to be treated is how professional players should act 90% of the time. Of course however, there is time for disagreement and frustration. But there's a difference between saying 'I think marauders are OP, my opponent didn't play very well but he still won, I couldn't believe it' and saying 'Yeah, I could beat my opponent 10 times out of 10 if they would just balance marauders, that guy is a skill-less newb for abusing those units'.
This is something that's apparently not common place in American culture anymore? It's considered okay to disrespect others now for the price of entertainment?
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Drama brings in viewers. That's about it.
Besides, SC2 will never be big in the west, stop pretending it's going to be like NFL or the NBA. I doubt it'll even be bigger than CS or Halo.
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I think people are getting confused. In all of the sports that I know of the only trash talk that happens is in-game. Before the game they talk about strategies and the other team's strengths and weaknesses with the interviewers, afterwards they shake hands with the other team.
Also "swing batter batter batter" is a lot different to "f***ing noob camper!"
If anyone is heard openly swearing excessively, in a lot of sports they can be sent off.
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as someone else already stated there are 2 paths based on how it grows
a) either the teams/owners/organization makes things like the NBA
b) WWE-style waste of time
im gunna go with a being the most likely if you considerin WoW and its sponsored teams
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Prohibiting "BM"? That is one of the things I love about the LAN CS scene, there is a lot of passion. You don't get a lot of people that rage hardcore (lolcheck6), and I am perfectly fine with trash talking. It is part of the game, it happens in real sports too. Shake hands afterwards, but on the field, you are enemies. (By the way, at CS tournies I have never seen a team not shake hands with their opponents)
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Well its obvious with players like Idra the western scene is more crude. However, I think that if the players are on LAN, they will be more respectful to each other, and thats why you don't really see koreans raging, its also their culture but I think that even western players wouldn't rage in lan tournaments.
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EPT
