On April 13 2010 01:35 pheer wrote: I've only played 3 beta games but I saw the problem too. Even the wording is strange. "Player 2 will get vision in 15 seconds" or something more revealing of a sentence (yes pun intended because it works keke).
They should only get vision if:
- they have no more defensive buildings (like turrets) - they have no more production buildings (like factories)
If someone that would normally (in BW) have a probe left with let's say, 2000 minerals, they better make some turrets or something defensive before their main gets ravaged. That would still allow for really nail-biting endings without allowing douchebags the opportunity to just hide pylons all over the map.
Doesn't that give an advantage to terran (and to a certain extent, zerg with overlord creep-spewing) since they don't need pylon power first to build things?
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
I 100% agree with you, in wc3 it takes 1 minute as well before that message appears, and that 1 minute can give you sooo much time and confusion which is fun, other than this instant boom here are the buildings go ahead and kill them,
just increase timer, 1 minute is fine, mb 2 but 1 is oke, how it is atm is really bad, agree agree.
I recently beat some fe protoss with 1 hatch hydra bust and he started planting pylons and nexi all over the map (btw why does pylon cancel give 100% refunds?!? Yes it obviously did in that game). But seriously, if I had waited for him to be revealed the game would have lasted longer. It really isn't hard to scout those small maps, especially with zerg of course. The only case where it might significantly help you is when a terran starts floating buildings everywhere. And even then it isn't very unlikely that he floats his main CC, so he isn't even being revealed.
Then a bit longer ago I played another protoss on LT who had me contained for a while and then expanded like mad. I was waiting for him to get his natural, he instead took his gold first, and soon after his nat. Only when watching the replay I realized that he had even snuck a ninja expand on the opposite side of my base even before he took his gold base. So I was able to break out while he was expanding so much, tore down his gold, nat and entered his main. He had abnormally many templars, but only when I didn't get that "is being revealed" message it occured to me that he might have some more bases (2 by then). Maybe I would have scouted the whole map when he wouldn't leave anyways, but I might just as well have cleaned up all his buildings at first. He probably wouldn't have had a chance in either case, but it definitely was to my advantage that I did not get an expected message.
Take this nonsense out of the game. At the very least don't display ANY messages and don't reveal ANYTHING as long as there is some fighting going on. Even then leave at least a few minutes of buffer.
Definitely the most annoying thing in the world, people can come back from deficits as we've all seen before.
Once all unit producing buildings are destroyed then vision should be granted, as much as I'd love to add turrets to the mix, if some dude has 1 turret somewhere on the map and he's hiding supply depots and never gets revealed thats lame. Honestly, its fun hunting down pylons anyway, i get all chatty and its just great!
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
Yea, it should just be delayed. The usefulness of this feature can't be understated, especially since I've played like 1 or 2 asshats that like to hide their shit and make me waste a lot of time looking for them.
Get rid of it, absolutely. I think we all remember the base race where zerglings took down the hidden pylon, moments like those shouldn't be lost because low level newbies can be dicks by hiding pylons.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
of course not T_T why would i commit the same fallacy of logic in my argument AGAINST you? i agree it should stay, just not for the reason you listed.
I agree this solution they have now is not the best solution to the problem. It would be simple to make a smater algorithm for exposing buildings base on the building types, locations, whether they are floating, and the number of them. Having a simplistic, destroy all CC formula is pretty lame.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
oh come on!
it's such a stupid fucking reason to keep it in the game. "oh sometimes some assholes hide pylons all over the map and it could 5 minutes to kill them!"
totally not worth keeping in the game. Building elim races happen SO MUCH MORE OFTEN. I've had like 10 games in beta so far where it's been building elim, and ZERO where someone plays hide the farm.
Well, we have to look at what effect it will have on progaming, and what on newbie-stupid-one-building-hiding-idiots games. And then decide which is more important and pick the best mechanic for that kind of game. I would choose point of view of progaming, thats what makes sense to me. Also I am in favor of getting rid of that mechanic and I see it having negative impact on a gameplay.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
This pretty much, and I hope it stays.Nothing like looking for fu*@$*$@ buildings all over the map. Oh, should also show floating buildings so idiots playing terran cant waste ur time.
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
This is beatiful solution. Just get rid of msg and reveal when its time to do so.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
This pretty much, and I hope it stays.Nothing like looking for fu*@$*$@ buildings all over the map. Oh, should also show floating buildings so idiots playing terran cant waste ur time.
The reveal mechanic is fine. I think War3 got it just about right. You don't receive vision instantly, so there's still some tension involved. I think it may be bugged however (since this is beta). The reveal timer is likely bugged because you occasionally get little to no warning before a reveal occurs, and seeing where your opponent has rebuilt a CC/Nex/Hatch before the reveal ends is definitely a bug. People need to stop flipping out about this. It's a good change but you need to be able to distinguish the bugged behavior versus the intended behavior.
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
EPT
