...Is STILL in the game! And honestly it's quite depressing that this hasn't been talked about (bitched about) more
I'm really quite upset that after 8 patches Blizzard still hasnt changed this stupid mechanic at all. I've had about half a dozen games where I either won or lost SOLELY because this still exists. One that stands out most to me is a PvP where I tech to DTs and my ramp gets busted before DTs are out. I turns into a base elimination where I have 3 DTs and he has some probes and zeals. He goes to proxy a pylon+forge+canon somewhere in the map (with all his zeals protecting it) while I am killing his base with 1 DT and 2 are defending my main. Suddenly his buildings are revealed to me and I see his proxy with the forge warping in so I run over there and kill his cannon about 3 seconds before it finishes it. I completely only won that game because the game told me where he was.
I've never met ANYONE who likes the being revealed mechanic, and everyone I know on the beta has had at least 1 game where it ruined the game. It needs to either have about 60 more seconds added onto the clock before buildings are revealed, or much more desirably be completely taken out of the game (at least from gold/plat division games ffs).
Poll: Should they get rid of or change the "being revealed" mechanic?
yes! completely get rid of it (402)
47%
add more time to the countdown before it starts (225)
26%
no keep it (197)
23%
just keep it in lower leagues but get rid of it in higher ones (39)
5%
863 total votes
Your vote: Should they get rid of or change the "being revealed" mechanic?
(Vote): yes! completely get rid of it (Vote): no keep it (Vote): add more time to the countdown before it starts (Vote): just keep it in lower leagues but get rid of it in higher ones
i've been F5'ing this thread for ages and still no reply...I need someone to argue with But yes, i've definitely won games I didnt deserve to win (that got to the elimination stage) due to this mechanic
what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
Have it as something you can enable/disable before starting a game. Concerning ladder, remove it. People who are too lazy to find Waldo doesn't deserve to win IMO
I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
It is even worse in 2v2s, especially with "... is not longer being revealed" giving away the fact that someone survived their main being destroyed and is trying to rebuild somewhere. Lame lame lame.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
I don't know if it was in WC and WC2, but it definitely wasn't in SC or SC:BW. To my knowledge, WC3 is the first Blizzard game it was in, and only Blizzard RTS since SC:BW, so that means it's been in *one* Blizzard game for years. Unless I'm wrong about the early Warcrafts, of course...
Also it seems to me that buildings are a lot harder to kill in WC3, which is a mitigating factor. If you're only going to lose your hall when you've already lost it's one thing. If a bunch of marauders can torch your nexus in < 5 sec, that's another.
There are certainly pro games that could have turned out MUCH differently with this mechanic in BW - and honestly, the "is being revealed" mechanic makes no sense in real-world terms. Like, less sense then any of the special abilities. It's a mechanic I didn't like in WC3 and I really don't like seeing it in SC2.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
uh, except starcraft T_T and i like how you say EVERY BLIZZARD GAME when what you mean is Warcraft.
well, this was in RoC and TFT. and it makes complete sense to me. one lousy player shouldn't prevent you from winning the game by building one pylon in an annoying part of the map.
either way, I can assure you this will never EVER get removed.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
taking an extra 5 minutes 1 out of a 100 games to kill some dude's hidden pylon is completely not worth ruining elimination race games (which honestly are much more frequent to anyone not in bronze league I guess)
One of the worst parts about this is that if someone is being revealed and they put down a new nexus, the opposing player can see that nexus on the minimap because it doesn't hide vision until just after it's created, so the opposing player already knows exactly where he/she has to go to kill their last base.
On April 13 2010 01:31 -orb- wrote: One of the worst parts about this is that if someone is being revealed and they put down a new nexus, the opposing player can see that nexus on the minimap because it doesn't hide vision until just after it's created, so the opposing player already knows exactly where he/she has to go to kill their last base.
this however was not here in WC3, you had to search the main yourself and there was no "is no longer being revealed" either if I recall correctly. those two features might not be cool, I agree on that. but this should not be removed, it should just be like in WC3.
I appreciate why it's in the game, but honestly, pylon hiding et al isn't that much of a big deal. In platinum and gold leagues I've never once come across a player who has done this. I think the best solution is just to keep this mechanic only for Novice Maps or the lower two leagues.
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
This man speaks the truth. I was typing up my response but realized he had the exact same thing I was going to post.
I think the timer is way too short. In WC3 it was much longer (~60 seconds, I think) which was much more reasonable than the 15 seconds we get now. I also agree with Chill - the first message gives a lot away - definitely won games where my opponent and I traded bases because I knew he didn't have any nexi and I rebuilt one in a corner somewhere before he killed my main.
I've only played 3 beta games but I saw the problem too. Even the wording is strange. "Player 2 will get vision in 15 seconds" would be more revealing of what is actually happening (yes pun intended because it works keke).
They should only get vision if:
- they have no more defensive buildings (like turrets) - they have no more production buildings (like factories)
If someone that would normally (in BW) have a probe left with let's say, 2000 minerals, they better make some turrets or something defensive before their main gets ravaged. That would still allow for really nail-biting endings without allowing douchebags the opportunity to just hide pylons all over the map.
I don't mind it and haven't had a single game ruined by it. I wouldn't mind if it was removed though, doesn't matter either way. Almost never have to worry about it.
At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
On April 13 2010 01:35 pheer wrote: I've only played 3 beta games but I saw the problem too. Even the wording is strange. "Player 2 will get vision in 15 seconds" or something more revealing of a sentence (yes pun intended because it works keke).
They should only get vision if:
- they have no more defensive buildings (like turrets) - they have no more production buildings (like factories)
If someone that would normally (in BW) have a probe left with let's say, 2000 minerals, they better make some turrets or something defensive before their main gets ravaged. That would still allow for really nail-biting endings without allowing douchebags the opportunity to just hide pylons all over the map.
Doesn't that give an advantage to terran (and to a certain extent, zerg with overlord creep-spewing) since they don't need pylon power first to build things?
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
I 100% agree with you, in wc3 it takes 1 minute as well before that message appears, and that 1 minute can give you sooo much time and confusion which is fun, other than this instant boom here are the buildings go ahead and kill them,
just increase timer, 1 minute is fine, mb 2 but 1 is oke, how it is atm is really bad, agree agree.
I recently beat some fe protoss with 1 hatch hydra bust and he started planting pylons and nexi all over the map (btw why does pylon cancel give 100% refunds?!? Yes it obviously did in that game). But seriously, if I had waited for him to be revealed the game would have lasted longer. It really isn't hard to scout those small maps, especially with zerg of course. The only case where it might significantly help you is when a terran starts floating buildings everywhere. And even then it isn't very unlikely that he floats his main CC, so he isn't even being revealed.
Then a bit longer ago I played another protoss on LT who had me contained for a while and then expanded like mad. I was waiting for him to get his natural, he instead took his gold first, and soon after his nat. Only when watching the replay I realized that he had even snuck a ninja expand on the opposite side of my base even before he took his gold base. So I was able to break out while he was expanding so much, tore down his gold, nat and entered his main. He had abnormally many templars, but only when I didn't get that "is being revealed" message it occured to me that he might have some more bases (2 by then). Maybe I would have scouted the whole map when he wouldn't leave anyways, but I might just as well have cleaned up all his buildings at first. He probably wouldn't have had a chance in either case, but it definitely was to my advantage that I did not get an expected message.
Take this nonsense out of the game. At the very least don't display ANY messages and don't reveal ANYTHING as long as there is some fighting going on. Even then leave at least a few minutes of buffer.
Definitely the most annoying thing in the world, people can come back from deficits as we've all seen before.
Once all unit producing buildings are destroyed then vision should be granted, as much as I'd love to add turrets to the mix, if some dude has 1 turret somewhere on the map and he's hiding supply depots and never gets revealed thats lame. Honestly, its fun hunting down pylons anyway, i get all chatty and its just great!
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
Yea, it should just be delayed. The usefulness of this feature can't be understated, especially since I've played like 1 or 2 asshats that like to hide their shit and make me waste a lot of time looking for them.
Get rid of it, absolutely. I think we all remember the base race where zerglings took down the hidden pylon, moments like those shouldn't be lost because low level newbies can be dicks by hiding pylons.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
of course not T_T why would i commit the same fallacy of logic in my argument AGAINST you? i agree it should stay, just not for the reason you listed.
I agree this solution they have now is not the best solution to the problem. It would be simple to make a smater algorithm for exposing buildings base on the building types, locations, whether they are floating, and the number of them. Having a simplistic, destroy all CC formula is pretty lame.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
oh come on!
it's such a stupid fucking reason to keep it in the game. "oh sometimes some assholes hide pylons all over the map and it could 5 minutes to kill them!"
totally not worth keeping in the game. Building elim races happen SO MUCH MORE OFTEN. I've had like 10 games in beta so far where it's been building elim, and ZERO where someone plays hide the farm.
Well, we have to look at what effect it will have on progaming, and what on newbie-stupid-one-building-hiding-idiots games. And then decide which is more important and pick the best mechanic for that kind of game. I would choose point of view of progaming, thats what makes sense to me. Also I am in favor of getting rid of that mechanic and I see it having negative impact on a gameplay.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
This pretty much, and I hope it stays.Nothing like looking for fu*@$*$@ buildings all over the map. Oh, should also show floating buildings so idiots playing terran cant waste ur time.
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
This is beatiful solution. Just get rid of msg and reveal when its time to do so.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
This pretty much, and I hope it stays.Nothing like looking for fu*@$*$@ buildings all over the map. Oh, should also show floating buildings so idiots playing terran cant waste ur time.
The reveal mechanic is fine. I think War3 got it just about right. You don't receive vision instantly, so there's still some tension involved. I think it may be bugged however (since this is beta). The reveal timer is likely bugged because you occasionally get little to no warning before a reveal occurs, and seeing where your opponent has rebuilt a CC/Nex/Hatch before the reveal ends is definitely a bug. People need to stop flipping out about this. It's a good change but you need to be able to distinguish the bugged behavior versus the intended behavior.
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
In some ways it would be good for it to get taken out, but in other ways it should stay in for example i was in a TvT match the other day, he had 1 building left which was his barracks, he flew it into one of the corners, so if it didn't reveal him then i would of been searching for ages, and he didn't leave till i destroyed it :|
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Something along these lines. But I think the delay could even be a lot longer, for the same reason. After 30 seconds, your troops might be still fighting in the enemy's base, and the information about the (nonexistant) second nexus can still be a crucial one for your decision on how to follow up. By the way, the game could still warn the player that lost the nexus of being revealed soon but not tell the opponent before it finally happens.
In general I like the "will be revealed" idea, but it should only reveal when it is highly unlikely that the player comes back, which is hardly the case just because there is no main building for a moment.
On a side note, the "is being revealed" should also be applied in someway to floating terran ccs. I mean, if you have only 1 cc and for some reason aren't landing it for over a minute or so, you're not necessarily better off than a protoss player who has 1 pylon and 1 probe with enough money for a nexus. Terrans fleeing with their floating buildings is precisely the "catch me if you can" bs that the mechanic is supposed to prevent.
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
Oh for gods sake what is it with you whining in every thread about zerg being at a disadvantage at this and that good god
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
Oh for gods sake what is it with you whining in every thread about zerg being at a disadvantage at this and that good god
Maybe because I have a point here?
Edit: On another hand it was same in Wc3 with undead. And it was shit as well, against Night Elfs hiding buildings in the trees it was major disadvantage.
Are playing warcraft? C'mon now blizzard. First we get HT that look like priests now we get this crap? might as well make zealots grunts, marine gunman and jim raynor into thrall
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
Oh for gods sake what is it with you whining in every thread about zerg being at a disadvantage at this and that good god
Maybe because I have a point here?
Edit: On another hand it was same in Wc3 with undead. And it was shit as well, against Night Elfs hiding buildings in the trees it was major disadvantage.
No, you don't have a point because that disadvantage is just an inherent disadvantage of Zerg as a whole. According to your agument, you could also argue that Zerg has a disadvantage early game because they can't proxy things as well. Yes, they do, but that's kind of the point of race diversity.
My favorite RTS moment ever was an epic nooby 3v3 Hunters game in SC I played that went on forever and came down to me vs. another guy with the map mined out and one supply depot vs. one pylon and 1 or two units.
If it wasnt in game, it would be major disadvantage for zerg when trading bases, as pylons etc and floating buildings are easy to hide, and zerg can only place extractors on gases. And thats it.
Oh for gods sake what is it with you whining in every thread about zerg being at a disadvantage at this and that good god
Maybe because I have a point here?
Edit: On another hand it was same in Wc3 with undead. And it was shit as well, against Night Elfs hiding buildings in the trees it was major disadvantage.
No, you don't have a point because that disadvantage is just an inherent disadvantage of Zerg as a whole. According to your agument, you could also argue that Zerg has a disadvantage early game because they can't proxy things as well. Yes, they do, but that's kind of the point of race diversity.
Yeah, but you do realize I was commenting on proposed change ( aka: removal ), and not on the current state of game? I think it's fine as it is atm, would just need a minor time tweak before it applies to a game.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
This pretty much, and I hope it stays.Nothing like looking for fu*@$*$@ buildings all over the map. Oh, should also show floating buildings so idiots playing terran cant waste ur time.
I would be more than willing to look for another 5 minutes for my win then to completely take base elimination games away from the game.
The whole message thing is obnoxious and not needed. If anything that message should not be displayed and there should be at least a 1 minute delay.
Spaylz, your argument is basically "Warcraft did it, so it's fine. I don't want to go pylon hunting". Clearly, we're focusing on a different aspect, I don't like pylon hunting either, can we think of a compromise that eliminates the pylon hunting aspect, without giving out way too much information when someone loses their last nexus but still has a legitimate chance of winning? That's what we should be discussing, instead of boldly claiming that blizzard will NEVER EVER change how it works - a claim you can not back up at all.
Huh, this actually works? How long does it take? Because not ONCE have I seen all the dudes buildings after he's supposed to be revealed. That said, these will usually be base elimination rushes with stuff hidden etc, but I've had games with somebody with units+1pylon and I guessed where the pylon was but never actually saw it before i lost.
actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
You must realize that the game is not magically over if someone loses all of their CC/Nex/Hatch.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
This pretty much, and I hope it stays.Nothing like looking for fu*@$*$@ buildings all over the map. Oh, should also show floating buildings so idiots playing terran cant waste ur time.
I would be more than willing to look for another 5 minutes for my win then to completely take base elimination games away from the game.
The whole message thing is obnoxious and not needed. If anything that message should not be displayed and there should be at least a 1 minute delay.
There's still base elimination going on as it is. If both are revealed, it's about who destroys the other one faster or who can build a new main building far away from the opponent's troops and defend it. It makes for pretty intense elimination races requiring quick decisions (e.g. to split up your army when there are buildings in different places that you have to kill off as fast as possible). I agree on the message and the delay though ...
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
Don't make me say what I didn't. From my point of view, it just adds more technicality to the game and forces players to be more careful, that's all.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
You must realize that the game is not magically over if someone loses all of their CC/Nex/Hatch.
Many people will still stay in the game even though they have GGed and they know they have lost, they just like to be awkward and stay in the game till you have destroyed every single thing of theirs.
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Yeah this is my biggest issue. It gives way too much information instantly.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
You must realize that the game is not magically over if someone loses all of their CC/Nex/Hatch.
Many people will still stay in the game even though they have GGed and they know they have lost, they just like to be awkward and stay in the game till you have destroyed every single thing of theirs.
not nearly as frequent as matches that involve a player losing all their CCs/nex/hatchs and still having a large chance at winning (but are then severely handicapped by the reveal mechanic)
The "will be revealed" gives far too much information already. At least remove that or make it visible only as a warning to the player to be revealed: "Attention: You will be revealed in <countdown> seconds unless you build a main building!" Better yet, remove the whole mechanic. It completely destroys the allure of elimination races. Having exciting elimination race games is much more important than not needing to spend a few minutes once in a while on finding an annoying noob's last pylon. One can probably report such guys for BM anyway.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
I had a guy run away for 30 minutes with his flying CC and factory and barracks. I had a fleet of like 20 BCs and he just kept running to be annoying.
You support the idea on ladder that some idiot before they lose, fucking decides to place a supply depot or supply or some shit IN SOME random ass corner to extend the match for what, more then necessary?
I agree that it shouldn't be immediate upon killing the hatchery, perhaps a 1 minute delay would be appropriate. I do think the feature should be included however, as there is nothing more annoying than having to kill a single pylon cuz a protoss player raged and refused to leave.
On April 13 2010 03:04 Two_DoWn wrote: I agree that it shouldn't be immediate upon killing the hatchery, perhaps a 1 minute delay would be appropriate. I do think the feature should be included however, as there is nothing more annoying than having to kill a single pylon cuz a protoss player raged and refused to leave.
I agree. If they can't get their CC up in around a minute, then they aren't going to get another CC up.
It's a good idea in theory, but unfortunately CC's can lift off. Terrans are the biggest problem and it wont even solve the issue due to the flying CC's.
I hated this feature when they introduced it to the Frozen Throne beta. Really it was introduced as a tournament feature (where you have like a 30 minute cap per game before there's a draw)- and then at some point it was introduced to every game, at least if my memory isn't failing. There are so many more situations where it gives information it shouldn't. There are only so many places a person can expand, so it's pretty obvious what is going on if they do.
Yes, this mechanic is frankly garbage. It's too telling in tense situations which happen all too often. Maybe I'm base trading in a TvT and I kill his CC, but if he isn't going to be revealed I know he is probably fixing to hide stuff on an island. Maybe he kills my CC and since I get revealed he knows all he has to do is hold out in one battle.
This "mechanic" just interferes with gameplay. It's not logical to have an in-game solution to the BM problem of hiding buildings everywhere in a lost game. Elimination races and similar situations (where economies are mutually vaporized) happen frequently and they have always happened even at the highest level.
It obviously has no basis in lore and it adds nothing to multiplayer.
I like the mechanic, but I think it would be a little better if they changed it a little more. Like having it reveal the other player if they lose all production buildings, or if they have no workers and no minerals to build with.
I do hate it when Terran griefers lose and just lift off and fly to all the corners of the map and I have to hunt them down. They need to do something about that, like the last CC can't be in the air for more than a minute.
It should be in the game, but that instant message after killing off last CC/Nex/Hatch MUST go away.
If player really has no shot at winning and is just hiding pylons all over the place, you will notice it in 1 minute and finish him. But if he had a chance to win, instantly letting player know that opponent doesn't have any additional bases is dumb
I think for laddering, especially on the higher end, they shouldn't announce "blah will be revealed" or "blah is being revealed", the should just have some kinda hidden countdown - like 60 seconds, and if the countdown is up, then it reveals the person.
I voted for add more countdown time.. And as Chill said remove the revealing message "is going to be revealed"
Just have a timer with x minutes.. like 5 minutes and after that display enemies buildings on the map without a message. This seems fairer than telling the player he got no nexus left.
Thats about everything that is needed imo. People will bitch and fuck around in games.. Thats obvious. Imo its not that annoying though but i see nothing really bad about this.
In a 1v1 for example if you lose your nexus or hatches and you have no money its obvious you wont be able to rebuild it and showing the enemy then is just fair imo. Why waste time finding buildings when the enemy is already dead..
In 2v2 there is a button "send cash" which will deny his buildings from being shown.
I remember all the counter arguments of "omg people will hide farms"... Well guess what - I've played about 900~1000 games of SC2 so far and NOT ONCE has this happened.
But if it never happens there is no point in removing the system either. Keep it as a safety feature but add more time to 5 minutes and no message displays.
I'd prefer a countdown. The message reveals so much about the game and not seeing it makes you know they have an expansion somewhere. I'd prefer some form of a countdown before it goes off.
I agree with the idea that it should only be revealed if there are no production and hatches/nexus/cc buildings, and add more countdown time so that the opponent won't see where the new hatch/nexus/cc is. There can be more epic comebacks :D
On April 13 2010 03:38 MeSaber wrote: But if it never happens there is no point in removing the system either. Keep it as a safety feature but add more time to 5 minutes and no message displays.
The "hiding farms" doesn't happen. Situations where the "is being revealed" is displayed occur quite often, and usually provide an unfair advantage to some player.
On April 13 2010 03:37 FrozenArbiter wrote: I remember all the counter arguments of "omg people will hide farms"... Well guess what - I've played about 900~1000 games of SC2 so far and NOT ONCE has this happened.
Well of course not, because they'd just get revealed! That's sort of a self-defeating argument haha.
Seriously though, the revealing the new CC is a bug and will be fixed. There is absolutely no way that's intended.
The time between the last CC destroyed and the announcement, as well as the announcement and the reveal could be bugged as well, and happening far too soon. That's something that's certainly adjustable by the developers quite easily.
I think its completely retarded, ESPECIALLY in 2v2 when it reveals a player who has an ally still in the game then lets you know right when/where they rebuild...
Using this mechanic to avoid some faggot making you take an hour to kill all his pylons severely outweighs the situation where you should be punished anyway for failing miserably at something. Plus that situation is pretty rare (much more rare than you running into a douchebag on battle net).
Having said that, I wouldn't be against adding more time before being revealed so that they have time to rebuild somewhere or something like that. People just shouldn't act like the existance of this mechanic has no purpose and is only in the game to piss them off individually.
There shouldn't be a message sent to the opponents when a player losses his last CC/hatch/nexus, that's just stupid, it should be displayed only to the player that's going to be revealed or not at all. The reveal timer should be at least 2 minutes.
I miss looking for that last pylon or depot. It rarely happened but when it did it always was a fun game of hide and seek. When I was 14 years old I went to a lan of a friend's brother. With the exception of me and my friend everyone was around 18. We played a 2v2 on a huge map and lost in an epic max army clash. However we me managed to stay alive because we planted buildings all over the map. One of our opponents easily a head taller than me was so pissed I expected him to blow up at any time and our laughter certainly didn't help. Although he could have used his superior physical figure to force his deserved win, after 5 minutes of searching he just said fuck it, left the game, went outside and lit one up. The win screen popped up on my screen but it wasn't until later when I realized that I learnt a valuable life lesson.
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
This man speaks the truth. I was typing up my response but realized he had the exact same thing I was going to post.
What HTH said! O and, I think that it should reveal only buildings locations if blizz won't take it out. It just won't reveal the Nexus. It will be like you saw the buildings already earlier in the game so they are shown in the fog but a new Nexus will not be shown.
I agree with what chill said on page 1. The problem isn't the buildings being revealed, this is necessary IMO (as I have run into plenty of people who like to play hide the pylon (~1300-1500 platinum players).
They do need to get rid of the "Is being revealed" message.
Once all Nexus/CC/Hatchery are dead, it should wait the allotted amount of time (15-30 seconds) and say "X has been revealed" and reveal their buildings.
There is no reason for the preemptive message that simply gives away far too much information.
I definitely think it made sense in a game like WC3 where you didn't have particularly many units. I remember playing games on the ladder and spending 15 minutes trying to find a hidden building. I'd have to search around w/ my slow ground units in every nook and cranny around.
However, in SC2 you have so many units you're guaranteed to hurt someone if you want to 8].
It should be gone imo. I've played games where i traded bases and i have the more mobile army so i could scout more area and get to their last buildings first, but i can't directly attack their forces because it would be too risky but they get to win becuase i couldn't build all over the map i only have say 1 pylon while they had 2 and although i could have lucked out and screen both of them before he could find my one he wins because he knows where my one is and i can't defend aganist it.
Imo it was a problem in wc3 where you had trees to hind shit in. I don't see it as too much of an issue in sc
there's a lot of misinformation here and a ton of posters don't know what happens in SC2.
As soon as your last CC is destroyed, everyone gets the message that you are being revealed. As soon as you plop one down, the messages pops up saying you are no longer being revealed. If you are revealed already and then plop one down, the enemy can see its location on the minimap.
In WC3, if your shit got owned only YOU would get the message saying you would be revealed with a timer of 2 minutes to when it happened. No one else knew about you not having another CC until 2 minutes later.
On April 13 2010 04:29 On_Slaught wrote: Don't let your main get busted?
Using this mechanic to avoid some faggot making you take an hour to kill all his pylons severely outweighs the situation where you should be punished anyway for failing miserably at something. Plus that situation is pretty rare (much more rare than you running into a douchebag on battle net).
Having said that, I wouldn't be against adding more time before being revealed so that they have time to rebuild somewhere or something like that. People just shouldn't act like the existance of this mechanic has no purpose and is only in the game to piss them off individually.
With the high mobility and DPS of SC2 it is not always possible to keep your main building alive unless you do nothing but turtle. Furthermore in some cases it simply is much more reasonable to attack than to defend.
If you need more than 10 minutes to kill all hidden buildings in a game of SC2 you are probably pretty bad. SC2 has fairly small maps and decent options of scouting large areas quickly.
This situation is not so rare at all. On maps like Scrap Station and Desert Oasis it is actually pretty common that one army choses one path and the other army choses the other path. Returning back home often is a bad choice as you will lose part of your infrastructure and then just trade armies. An elimination race is often the best choice.
If it comes down to an elimination race, 1 minute usually isn't enough to kill off all buildings in some player's base. Usually one player is revealed earlier than the other and thus has a huge disadvantage. I propose that the map will only be revealed once all fighting has stopped for at least 1 minute.
I'd like to see it removed entirely, but I suppose I can see why they included it; otherwise some people in ladder would spread out all over the map and hide tiny buildings in every nook and cranny in hopes that the other player will leave.
Perhaps they could add an option to disable that feature in custom games
The people who would hide buildings everywhere are the people who play like crap because they spend all their time waiting to die instead of conceding and moving on to the next practice game. Even if a platinum guy with 0% chance of winning were just spamming pylons, it would just be a rare bout of BM. But in the higher leagues, people don't take more than 5 minutes to hunt down all their opponent's shit - all the reveal mechanic does is ruin tight situations and elimination races.
I don't think it belongs in the game. If you beat someone comprehensively that they resort to hiding pylons, it doesn't really take that long to kill them. If you don't beat someone by a huge margin (base racing basically), it really creates a lot of tension when you try to find that last damned pylon while the protoss is owning up your main. Revealing buildings in those situations is kind of stupid.
The only time I've ever really been bothered by someone hiding pylons etc is in BW when people used to float CC/shuttle probes to the island expos on LT and start massing turrets/pylons. God that sucked and took ages to take down. However, revealing their buildings will not help in that circumstance.
Hiding pylons and hidden extractors do happen once in a while back in SC:BW. There are really also games where people who came back with no Nexus/Hatch/CC but with money in the bank. These are part of what makes SC exciting.
This "IS BEING REVEALED" feature is a good addition but not done right. I should think around 3-4 minutes should be given before the reveal. Timer before the reveal can be displayed but only for the revealee. We should let the opposing player scout for the enemy for a little while. There is still the misinformation of "another nexus/hatch/cc" in effect.
Otherwise, I foresee nexus/hatch/cc sniping tactics in the future which would be a really stupid idea/logic for a win in a game.
even if Blizzard doesn't change it - wouldn't it be quite easy to make a mod which prevents that and which is being used in tournaments? I mean that feature is clearly in because of copper level pylon hiding and given how bad the humanity is, rightly so - but I can see everyone good agree on using such a mod.
On April 13 2010 01:30 Spaylz wrote: well, this was in RoC and TFT. and it makes complete sense to me. one lousy player shouldn't prevent you from winning the game by building one pylon in an annoying part of the map.
either way, I can assure you this will never EVER get removed.
lol? It's actually quite interesting how you speak with such certainty (and by interesting I mean absurd).
I personally like the reveal.. however i do agree as a lot is saying that there should be something, like around a 30 sec delay (or another time-delay) before everything is revealed, altough removing the reveal completely and then finding your opponent is not that hard.. and i think (especially in the higher leagues) hiding your buildings can very well be a part of a players tactic (not just a pylon/supply depot), you know.. to be spread around the map and not showing your enemy what you are up to.
I think they added this because in games like Warcraft 3 (their previous release), if the opponent could survive with just one tiny build, it would be inbafuckinglievably possible to find this.
I think, for most part, that it's a fair mechanic and should be kept into the game, but like you said, they should make the time a bit more.
On April 13 2010 05:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I think it's fine...
I appreciate why it's there and I think maybe you should stop getting into elimination races so often if this is such a big deal...
Again, watch some replays where this happens- it makes for some very exciting games. (And Day9's 50th cast the most epic BGH comeback would have been completely impossible.)
I think we can agree that: 1) BM players hiding buildings sucks 2) The current reveal is no good.
Personally I wouldn't mind if the reveal stayed, but increase the time to 3-5 minutes. Units move so fast in SC2, so if they are actually rebuilding a base you should be able to find it by scouting in that time. If in that time they are just hiding pylons, you'll get your reveal.
Definitely get rid of the "is being revealed." A countdown for the player who lost their Nexus, etc would be good for commentating purposes if they can also see the countdown- could increase the excitement.
This definitely needs to be changed for any form of 2v2 or 3v3, 2v2v2v2, 4v4 etc. An ally can be down and out for a bit and make a strong recovery to win the game.
The mechanic itself is not a bad mechanic but how they went about doing it was pretty terrible. The WC3 version is better mainly because it doesn't show when you put your main back up, and it sure as hell doesn't show where you put it.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
oh come on!
it's such a stupid fucking reason to keep it in the game. "oh sometimes some assholes hide pylons all over the map and it could 5 minutes to kill them!"
totally not worth keeping in the game. Building elim races happen SO MUCH MORE OFTEN. I've had like 10 games in beta so far where it's been building elim, and ZERO where someone plays hide the farm.
That game was such a waste of 5 minutes, the terran was really worthy of winning that and if the toss did actually win it he would win it all based on luck! A reveal mechanic will make elimination games much fairer, the one with the better army left and with better micro will win instead of the guy finding the other guys hidden pylon first wins.
The fun part of elimination races is the actual competition of how long it takes to raze all of the other guys structures and trying to win with a limited amount of units, not looking at them trying to find the other players last structure.
But I agree that the current reveal mechanic is sloppily done and should get changed, but a reveal mechanic will be a good addition both for casual and competitive play in my opinion.
Being revealed is ridiculous, they need to improve this. I'm thinking something along the lines of comparing what the player's resource count / worker count / army composition is to the enemy's should be done before even showing a message that 'player is about to be revealed'.
A power rating can be attributed to each unit, such as 5 to a collossus, 4 to an immortal and 2 to a zealot, while giving unique ratings to air units as well and then comparing it to the enemy's power rating is an example of a crude way of at least TRYING to fix this stupid feature.
The stupidest part about it for me is that if you make a new CC/Hatch/Nexus after you're revealed, it shows up on the map even though logically you'd think it shouldn't.
I think all you WarCraftors are forgetting, this is the sequel to StarCraft, not a new WarCraft 3, why should we add a mechanic that sucks to StarCraft 2 that wasn't in StarCraft 1, you guys have to remember, a lot of WarCraft 3 was 1 base play and sometimes 2 but not till later game so it didn't matter, but StarCraft, you end up with 3-5 bases in a normal game sometimes more. The fact that you kill your opponents main doesn't mean he is dead, like in WarCraft 3.
So before all you WarCraftors want this mechanic in, play more StarCraft and see for yourself why it just doesn't work in this game.
On April 13 2010 06:27 WarChimp wrote: I think all you WarCraftors are forgetting, this is the sequel to StarCraft, not a new WarCraft 3, why should we add a mechanic that sucks to StarCraft 2 that wasn't in StarCraft 1, you guys have to remember, a lot of WarCraft 3 was 1 base play and sometimes 2 but not till later game so it didn't matter, but StarCraft, you end up with 3-5 bases in a normal game sometimes more. The fact that you kill your opponents main doesn't mean he is dead, like in WarCraft 3.
So before all you WarCraftors want this mechanic in, play more StarCraft and see for yourself why it just doesn't work in this game.
You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about, killing the main do not mean that someone is revealed.
On April 13 2010 06:27 WarChimp wrote: I think all you WarCraftors are forgetting, this is the sequel to StarCraft, not a new WarCraft 3, why should we add a mechanic that sucks to StarCraft 2 that wasn't in StarCraft 1, you guys have to remember, a lot of WarCraft 3 was 1 base play and sometimes 2 but not till later game so it didn't matter, but StarCraft, you end up with 3-5 bases in a normal game sometimes more. The fact that you kill your opponents main doesn't mean he is dead, like in WarCraft 3.
So before all you WarCraftors want this mechanic in, play more StarCraft and see for yourself why it just doesn't work in this game.
You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about, killing the main do not mean that someone is revealed.
I think that he best solution would to only allow the revel mechanic when one player has been mining minerals for lets say for the sake of argument 80% of the time for the last 3 minutes while their opponent has not had a main building and to make it only show building on the mini map when they are revealed. This would mean elimination races would only happen when the opponent has almost no chance of coming back. It would still stop the building hiding when you are owning them, but building hiding when you have both been crippled would still work.
It might also be a good Idea to revel the opponent when they no longer have any units that can do damage. So if I have a supply depot and a raven with Hunter seeker missile(HSM) and you have a turret and a banshee. Neither of us are reveled. Lets say I screw up and fly into your turret, and louse my raven. Now I can't attack so I am reveled. If you had lost your banshee to my HSM then neither of us can attack (assuming HSM doesn't hurt buildings) so we will both be revealed. (This is where a draw should kick in, but that's for another thread) If a scv were to fall from the sky for you and build a CC then start mining at the end of 3 minutes of mining I would be reviled.
In either of games posted above the neither player would not have been revealed.In a team game these rules should be applied across the entire team.
If you do come back and build a main building your opponent shouldn't see anything to let him know it happened. Your revealed building would still be one the mini map, but they wouldn't know be able to tell that you had a new main.
While not perfect (you can't set up defenses before you commit to the expansion) it would likely never affect a game.
On April 13 2010 01:22 Spaylz wrote: what the fuck ? this has been in every Blizzard game for years... it's meant to prevent the lame, and quite frankly I'm happy it's there since there are LOTS and LOTS of morons who just can't accept when they've lost and just keep building things everywhere with no army whatsoever just to annoy their opponent.
this will never get removed nor even changed, believe me.
You must realize that the game is not magically over if someone loses all of their CC/Nex/Hatch.
Many people will still stay in the game even though they have GGed and they know they have lost, they just like to be awkward and stay in the game till you have destroyed every single thing of theirs.
I do agree that it is annoying when someone lingers in a lost game, however the solution they've implemented can totally ruin a legitimate game... I'd much rather look around for a floating barracks every other game than have the "is being revealed" thing kept around.
It completely ruins elim races, which are EXTREMELY exciting to watch. People rely on sacrifices to win games, and this can ruin it. I hope blizzard makes the right choice and removes this before SC2 launch, this is StarCraft not WarCraft!
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
Or Blizz should just come to their senses and not display the message at all, but rather reveal the buildings after 30-45s. It seems they are afraid that people might complain or something. Any player who just played a 15+ minute game will most likely not care about extra 30s before buildings are revealed and then extra few minutes to find and kill them.
At the same time, leaving this as it is can rob us off a LOT of exciting games
It's weird, all wc3 competitions occured with this feature going on, and nobody ever complained about it. ever.
its weird because MORE sc competitions occurred without this feature and no one complained either.
and there have been many notable pro games that never wouldve happened with this feature.
not saying it should go, i kinda like it, just saying, wc3 didnt necessarily get it right.
and does that mean that sc got it right ? :D I don't think so. I agree that the timer is too short, but this does belong in the game.
oh come on!
it's such a stupid fucking reason to keep it in the game. "oh sometimes some assholes hide pylons all over the map and it could 5 minutes to kill them!"
totally not worth keeping in the game. Building elim races happen SO MUCH MORE OFTEN. I've had like 10 games in beta so far where it's been building elim, and ZERO where someone plays hide the farm.
That game was such a waste of 5 minutes, the terran was really worthy of winning that and if the toss did actually win it he would win it all based on luck! A reveal mechanic will make elimination games much fairer, the one with the better army left and with better micro will win instead of the guy finding the other guys hidden pylon first wins.
The fun part of elimination races is the actual competition of how long it takes to raze all of the other guys structures and trying to win with a limited amount of units, not looking at them trying to find the other players last structure.
But I agree that the current reveal mechanic is sloppily done and should get changed, but a reveal mechanic will be a good addition both for casual and competitive play in my opinion.
there's totally something to be said for the strategy of hiding buildings to make sure you can eliminate the other guy first, just like in Savior vs nal_ra
I, like many, agree with Chill. A longer delay really matters, I'm not sure why Blizzard introduced the Beta with such a short delay time. The "stop noobs from making me hunt their buildings" argument has no worth when compared to the gamebreaking features of exposing an enemy's entire base.
reveal is good, but it needs to have a 60 second timer on it... like WC3 did.
Right now its like... ok i lost my nexus let me build a new one oh he knows exactly where I built it how stupid. This doesn't come up very often, but a timer is sorely needed.
It's probably not needed at higher levels... But I have a feeling as more and more people play SC2 you're going to get more people in those high level brackets and I GUARANTEE that you'll have to deal with pylon hiding.
The only possible issue I see is guy w/ bigger army defending last pylon, and guy with small army comes to last pylon and just suicides on it, and thus the lesser player wins, in theory.
I see your point. And I agree that in tournaments this could turn the tide of the game. Maybe there should be an extra option to turn this off on custom maps.
However, on bnet this feature MUST exist. There are so many dumb kinds on the inet that would start hiding stuff all over the map after they see that they are losing. It can prolong the game for quite a bit and it would be annoying as hell. I remember what it was in wc3 where a nightelf would eat his way through the woods on any map and you would need to spend 15 minutes until you find him...
The 60 second timer would be the best because then 1. The enemy doesn't know whether or not you have more CC the instant they eliminate 1. 2. The enemy doesn't know the instant you start rebuilding a new CC
The only other change I would make is that you are revealed if you have no Landed CC for 60 sec.
Building a CC sets the timer to 0 Landing a CC starts the timer Decreasing instead of increasing. (so if you land for 10 sec. it will only buy you 10 sec. of 'Flight time"
Forget the delay timer. Just make it so that it can be toggled. Put it in if you want, and take it out if you don't. Make it a check option so that the AMM would put you with another person who has the same option.
And if it turns out that people who want it in have a smaller pool of players. then too bad...obviously its not good to have it implemented. Pylon hiding and such is not that big of a deal. People wouldn't even do it at high levels. They lose, so what. go play another game.
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
The more and more of these stupid things I see, the less excited I am about the game. Blizzard is taking the world of warcraft approach to Sc2, not a starcraft approach.
On April 13 2010 07:16 FrogOfWar wrote: Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
Isn't that just the thing though? In SCBW and SCII there are quite a few scouting options and if you're smart, you can predict where they'll be hidden- or at least run units all over the map. But to prevent the game delayers, just keep the reveal, only add more time. Seems simple enough.
On April 13 2010 01:33 Plexa wrote: I appreciate why it's in the game, but honestly, pylon hiding et al isn't that much of a big deal. In platinum and gold leagues I've never once come across a player who has done this. I think the best solution is just to keep this mechanic only for Novice Maps or the lower two leagues.
pretty much agree. Any high level players are basically going to just abuse this mechanic and it removes depth from the game. At the lower levels is the only place you would want it, and even then it's not like it's hard to make some air units and shift click around the map looking for stuff..
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
that's exactly what made it so exciting. Savior was able to scout the pylon in time without it being revealed to him first.
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Spot on. Could be a bit longer than 15 seconds too.
Maybe increase the timer a smidge, but really, what's going to happen in a minute that can't happen in 15 seconds, in terms of rebuilding a cc/hatch/nexus? Keep it the way it is, or increase the time to no more than a minute, but the people who are saying "remove it entirely!" or "increase the time to five minutes!" are being completely unreasonable.
Should just be removed. It can impact the outcome of the game solely for saving someone a little bit of time. When your opponent is reduced to the point in which he can't come back, and is just hiding things all over the map, it's fairly easy to find his buildings and finish him.
It's not something that happens all that often anyways.
On April 13 2010 08:01 ComradeDover wrote: Maybe increase the timer a smidge, but really, what's going to happen in a minute that can't happen in 15 seconds, in terms of rebuilding a cc/hatch/nexus? Keep it the way it is, or increase the time to no more than a minute, but the people who are saying "remove it entirely!" or "increase the time to five minutes!" are being completely unreasonable.
In a minute you actually have time to build a cc/hatch/nexus in another expansion? 15 seconds, basically snipe their cc's and voila, you know where they are.
On April 13 2010 08:01 ComradeDover wrote: Maybe increase the timer a smidge, but really, what's going to happen in a minute that can't happen in 15 seconds, in terms of rebuilding a cc/hatch/nexus? Keep it the way it is, or increase the time to no more than a minute, but the people who are saying "remove it entirely!" or "increase the time to five minutes!" are being completely unreasonable.
In a minute you actually have time to build a cc/hatch/nexus in another expansion? 15 seconds, basically snipe their cc's and voila, you know where they are.
It gives you 15 seconds to begin construction, not to complete. The "reveal" goes away once you start building one, not once you complete one.
Come to think of it, as a Terran you could just start a CC with no intention of finishing it and pulling the SCV off right away, and you would never be revealed.
Unless you mean you need more time to go and build an entire new base after your last one has been destroyed, in which case all I can say is GIVE UP YOU LOST.
On April 13 2010 01:32 Ideas wrote: if you vote to keep it in you better fucking post so we know who you are lol
You're kidding me right? You're idea of a good time is running around the map finding the supply depots of somone who thinks that the best way to handle losing is to waste everyone's time?
The mechanic needs to be ramped up to be triggered when there are no CCs on the ground Flying command centers off into the corners of the map is one of the least fun game mechanics I think I've ever seen.
They introduced this mechanic because hiding buildings was universally reviled. It's only 5 minutes every hundredth game because reveal is there. Take it away and it's half an hour every second game.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
It is toggleable. In Warcraft 3, the script is implemented as a part of the default UMS triggers for a melee map. I imagine it is no different in SC2.
On April 13 2010 07:16 FrogOfWar wrote: Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
This. The argument against it has been posed in multiple threads so far but nobody has been able to come up with a single VOD in which having the reveal mechanic would have impacted the match.
I just don't see it worthwhile attempting to change something which has a negative impact on 1 in every 10000 high level matches (probably less) but has a positive impact on 1 of every 20 low level matches. This isn't an issue that affects high level players players at all, but it is a legitimate issue in low level play.
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
that's exactly what made it so exciting. Savior was able to scout the pylon in time without it being revealed to him first.
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
that's exactly what made it so exciting. Savior was able to scout the pylon in time without it being revealed to him first.
Point taken, but you make it sound like the scouting is the only thing that made this game exciting and fun to watch. I don't think so. And with a reveal mechanic in place, TT would have tried to put the pylon at some remote place, maybe with a ramp that he can block, in order to buy himself some time. There still would be tactical decisions to be made and close, exciting races.
(Again, I'm not saying leave it as it is, but increase the delay before someone is revealed and tie it to some more conditions so that you're only revealed when you're no longer able to produce units or to build a new main building or something like that.)
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
This man speaks the truth. I was typing up my response but realized he had the exact same thing I was going to post.
What HTH said! O and, I think that it should reveal only buildings locations if blizz won't take it out. It just won't reveal the Nexus. It will be like you saw the buildings already earlier in the game so they are shown in the fog but a new Nexus will not be shown.
Very correct, In fact trying to get a new base up is impossible because he is revealed! I'll be uploading an FPVOD that desmonstrate this (He called me a map hacker in the game because of it lol) I recommend increasing the delay up to 3 - 4 minutes. By then, the critical elimination race SHOULD be over and its only hide and seek with a few inactive buildings lol.
If blizzard is worried that this feature will make some games stale and indefinite at the competitive level, they shouldn't.
This is because, in the pro scene, there will be referees who will pause the game and either force a draw or one player to end the game. Basically, Blizzard here is trying to toss in an automated ref, but as mentioned in the OP, there are adverse effects.
i hate it, it's extremely contrived and gives information in a very artificial manner. even the "nuclear launch detected" message is less intrusive! considering that an average game is about 20 minutes, taking the max 3 minutes to look around isn't a big deal at all. people don't seem to realize that you don't automatically lose when you lose your nexus, if that was the case we'd all just suicide onto them. this mechanic is downright game-breaking in 2v2.
starcraft is first and foremost a game of incomplete information. arbitrarily revealing so much is stupid.
IMO, keep it for ladder (to prevent stalling and such), but have an option to disable it for custom games, so tournaments can still have exciting, down-to-the-wire games.
On April 13 2010 18:12 FrogOfWar wrote: And with a reveal mechanic in place, TT would have tried to put the pylon at some remote place, maybe with a ramp that he can block, in order to buy himself some time. There still would be tactical decisions to be made and close, exciting races.
Please. With hiding of the pylon. It buys him even MORE time if the enemy still has to do the additional step of scouring the map to find him. And what tactical decisions exactly? If not, it gives him even less options to choose from to make from if the reveal mechanic is in place.
The only valid argument for it is the purposefully hiding of buildings around the map to only delay from inevitable elimination. There are some games which the elimination is not clear cut and may still go the other way. This is where the mechanic needs some fixing. Not just the addition of timer. Maybe additional detection of resources as well.
At the moment, we do need to know how many players have recovered from being revealed. If there is none, we might as well end the game right there.
SC2 players are quite BM and this game would be awful without it. I can't tell you how many games I have played where the opponent goes "gg" and then hides his buildings in a corner. Nobody should have to spend 10 minutes formally ending the game after both people know who has won, and I'm glad blizzard is saving me the trouble.
On April 13 2010 21:52 machinus wrote: SC2 players are quite BM and this game would be awful without it. I can't tell you how many games I have played where the opponent goes "gg" and then hides his buildings in a corner. Nobody should have to spend 10 minutes formally ending the game after both people know who has won, and I'm glad blizzard is saving me the trouble.
But sometimes hiding one building is what allows you to win.
Maybe it's ... I dunno, fine for the Cooper division ? I personally hate this, coz I was playing a guy and we traded bases. He killed my Nexus and saw my hidden Stargate and then went for it. And that Stargate had a key presence before this event.
On April 13 2010 01:33 Plexa wrote: I appreciate why it's in the game, but honestly, pylon hiding et al isn't that much of a big deal. In platinum and gold leagues I've never once come across a player who has done this. I think the best solution is just to keep this mechanic only for Novice Maps or the lower two leagues.
im finding this mechanic to be newly annoying. base trading is impossible to survive now =\
never bothered me too before, but now >.< its not necessary in any way. if your opponent bms you, then just trash talk him while getting bunches of air units to run around and own everything. it really doesnt take as long as you think, especially if you have fun with it.
I have only ever had ONE guy hiding stuff. I had already found all pylons by the time he was going to be revealed. It ruins games, and it helps some newbs against other newbs.
So how about only including this for games around the copper level and below? :p I definitely has to be removed from platinum ladder games and custom games.
On April 13 2010 21:52 machinus wrote: SC2 players are quite BM and this game would be awful without it. I can't tell you how many games I have played where the opponent goes "gg" and then hides his buildings in a corner. Nobody should have to spend 10 minutes formally ending the game after both people know who has won, and I'm glad blizzard is saving me the trouble.
10 minutes to kill a building ? oh my! It usually takes 2 minutes max to find AND kill any building on the map. And I usually do it with scvs.
Just needed to say that I also hate this mechanic. I come from the upper levels of the Age series where the maps were HUGE compared to SC2, and every once in a while you would play "find the walled in villager". It was never a big deal, and never took that long. In SC2 it takes what, 30 seconds to find his buildings?
I've had I believe 3 or 4 games ruined by this mechanic (I was on the winning end of 2 of them, when I may have lost). Its extremely annoying when units like banchees can snipe your TC in no time at all, and he gets all that information.
SC2 more than any game I've played is about information, and this mechanic is simply too informative.
Looks like those idiots are just playing "hide the nexus/CC" anyways. And since it's mostly bad players who do this stuff, and since most bad players have overmins this whole mechanic really doesn't help at all in the situations when it is supposed to help.
This is one of the most absurd mechanics I've heard of for SCII. Prevent what? Some lousy losers who can't accept they lost? At the cost of what? If Blizzard says they are trying to fully support progaming this is a poor way to show it, since elimination games are some of the most exciting ones. Definitely, they should remove this feature.
On April 15 2010 23:24 Stropheum wrote: Think of it this way: You've lost your LAST worker producing building. Did you not get outplayed at this point?
Ironically, this mechanic would have completely fucked MVP vs Baby tonight and chances are that the result would have been reversed IF the mechanic was in place.
I dislike the idea of having to hunt all over the map to find the last expo of someone who refuses to admit defeat, but the way it is now is a bit too much. I agree with what chill said in the first page, don't put a warning of about to be revealed, just do so, but do so after another 30-45 seconds beyond what's there now.
It's obviously an improvement. Otherwise we'll have to hunt terrans for 10 minutes in order to destroy their last building. Same for hunting the last hidden pylon of the toss.
To those saying they havent come across players who do this lamer pylon hiding garbage. That is because A. the current mechanic is in place so they know its pointless, and B. There aren't that many asshats in a beta.
Keep the mechanic. I would maybe be behind a 30 second grace period though.
In the case of an elimination race I would say a delay at the least is appropriate. Otherwise, If you don't have the money to put up another nexus before your last one goes down then the game is probably over anyway.
This mechanic just makes good scouting less important. As has been said 1000+ times, when you kill their "last" main building but don't get the message, you IMMEDIATELY know that they have expanded somewhere else. They could have had the expansion for 10 minutes or for 10 seconds, but you get to find out for NOTHING that it exists.
There are so many other corner cases as well that this negatively affects. This mechanic just should not be in a game of Starcraft, ever.
Everyone who complains about having to run off and find pylons:
That game is obviously not worth mentioning. The important games are the awesome games where ninja expansions make the difference, where probes miss someone's base by a few pixels, where scouting is a super-important skill.
Taking an extra 2-3 minutes to move around the map looking for a pylon is not a big deal, and the inconvenience is not worth sacrificing incredibly epic moments.
EPT
