reveal is good, but it needs to have a 60 second timer on it... like WC3 did.
Right now its like... ok i lost my nexus let me build a new one oh he knows exactly where I built it how stupid. This doesn't come up very often, but a timer is sorely needed.
It's probably not needed at higher levels... But I have a feeling as more and more people play SC2 you're going to get more people in those high level brackets and I GUARANTEE that you'll have to deal with pylon hiding.
The only possible issue I see is guy w/ bigger army defending last pylon, and guy with small army comes to last pylon and just suicides on it, and thus the lesser player wins, in theory.
I see your point. And I agree that in tournaments this could turn the tide of the game. Maybe there should be an extra option to turn this off on custom maps.
However, on bnet this feature MUST exist. There are so many dumb kinds on the inet that would start hiding stuff all over the map after they see that they are losing. It can prolong the game for quite a bit and it would be annoying as hell. I remember what it was in wc3 where a nightelf would eat his way through the woods on any map and you would need to spend 15 minutes until you find him...
The 60 second timer would be the best because then 1. The enemy doesn't know whether or not you have more CC the instant they eliminate 1. 2. The enemy doesn't know the instant you start rebuilding a new CC
The only other change I would make is that you are revealed if you have no Landed CC for 60 sec.
Building a CC sets the timer to 0 Landing a CC starts the timer Decreasing instead of increasing. (so if you land for 10 sec. it will only buy you 10 sec. of 'Flight time"
Forget the delay timer. Just make it so that it can be toggled. Put it in if you want, and take it out if you don't. Make it a check option so that the AMM would put you with another person who has the same option.
And if it turns out that people who want it in have a smaller pool of players. then too bad...obviously its not good to have it implemented. Pylon hiding and such is not that big of a deal. People wouldn't even do it at high levels. They lose, so what. go play another game.
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
The more and more of these stupid things I see, the less excited I am about the game. Blizzard is taking the world of warcraft approach to Sc2, not a starcraft approach.
On April 13 2010 07:16 FrogOfWar wrote: Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
Isn't that just the thing though? In SCBW and SCII there are quite a few scouting options and if you're smart, you can predict where they'll be hidden- or at least run units all over the map. But to prevent the game delayers, just keep the reveal, only add more time. Seems simple enough.
On April 13 2010 01:33 Plexa wrote: I appreciate why it's in the game, but honestly, pylon hiding et al isn't that much of a big deal. In platinum and gold leagues I've never once come across a player who has done this. I think the best solution is just to keep this mechanic only for Novice Maps or the lower two leagues.
pretty much agree. Any high level players are basically going to just abuse this mechanic and it removes depth from the game. At the lower levels is the only place you would want it, and even then it's not like it's hard to make some air units and shift click around the map looking for stuff..
On April 13 2010 02:30 Spaylz wrote: actually I can, with almost 10 years of Warcraft III being played on a progaming level, I think it would have been removed if too many people complained about this. This is not about providing better gameplay or "more beautiful games", this is about practicality.
If you think chasing down building in order to win a game, or ruining your opponent's game makes a game beautiful, well then... we have significant different definitions of beauty. and I mean truely ruin, you can't be sain and willing to explore the map over and over again for 10 minutes to win a game against a poor jerk that can't handle losing. This is just "evolution", this is just Blizzard implementing practical features into the game, if you remove this you might aswell remove the grouping features too, because it makes the game more noobfriendly and "makes it too easy", like thousands of morons like to complain about everyday.
im starting to think you never actually watched any VODs where this mechanic would ruin the game, or ever actually played a game like that. I mean, no sane person with said experience would be so amazingly ignorant about the matter. For some reason you STILL think that it's all about just hiding a pylon and alt-tabbing or something. There are SO MANY more games where it comes down to a very even match and a player who could totally win the game would/does have his chances ruined by the reveal mechanic. It's like you think we're just a big forum of pylon-hiders bitching that we can't waste the other guys time as much any more.
Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
that's exactly what made it so exciting. Savior was able to scout the pylon in time without it being revealed to him first.
On April 13 2010 01:24 Chill wrote: I think they need to get rid of the first message, the "is going to be revealed" line. That gives a lot of information when you kill a nexus and are sure they don't have another one. It also lets you know the moment they rebuild it.
If they just didn't have that message and waited 30 seconds and then did the "is being revealed" message I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Spot on. Could be a bit longer than 15 seconds too.
Maybe increase the timer a smidge, but really, what's going to happen in a minute that can't happen in 15 seconds, in terms of rebuilding a cc/hatch/nexus? Keep it the way it is, or increase the time to no more than a minute, but the people who are saying "remove it entirely!" or "increase the time to five minutes!" are being completely unreasonable.
Should just be removed. It can impact the outcome of the game solely for saving someone a little bit of time. When your opponent is reduced to the point in which he can't come back, and is just hiding things all over the map, it's fairly easy to find his buildings and finish him.
It's not something that happens all that often anyways.
On April 13 2010 08:01 ComradeDover wrote: Maybe increase the timer a smidge, but really, what's going to happen in a minute that can't happen in 15 seconds, in terms of rebuilding a cc/hatch/nexus? Keep it the way it is, or increase the time to no more than a minute, but the people who are saying "remove it entirely!" or "increase the time to five minutes!" are being completely unreasonable.
In a minute you actually have time to build a cc/hatch/nexus in another expansion? 15 seconds, basically snipe their cc's and voila, you know where they are.
On April 13 2010 08:01 ComradeDover wrote: Maybe increase the timer a smidge, but really, what's going to happen in a minute that can't happen in 15 seconds, in terms of rebuilding a cc/hatch/nexus? Keep it the way it is, or increase the time to no more than a minute, but the people who are saying "remove it entirely!" or "increase the time to five minutes!" are being completely unreasonable.
In a minute you actually have time to build a cc/hatch/nexus in another expansion? 15 seconds, basically snipe their cc's and voila, you know where they are.
It gives you 15 seconds to begin construction, not to complete. The "reveal" goes away once you start building one, not once you complete one.
Come to think of it, as a Terran you could just start a CC with no intention of finishing it and pulling the SCV off right away, and you would never be revealed.
Unless you mean you need more time to go and build an entire new base after your last one has been destroyed, in which case all I can say is GIVE UP YOU LOST.
On April 13 2010 01:32 Ideas wrote: if you vote to keep it in you better fucking post so we know who you are lol
You're kidding me right? You're idea of a good time is running around the map finding the supply depots of somone who thinks that the best way to handle losing is to waste everyone's time?
The mechanic needs to be ramped up to be triggered when there are no CCs on the ground Flying command centers off into the corners of the map is one of the least fun game mechanics I think I've ever seen.
They introduced this mechanic because hiding buildings was universally reviled. It's only 5 minutes every hundredth game because reveal is there. Take it away and it's half an hour every second game.
On April 13 2010 01:37 MidKnight wrote: At the VERY least this should be a toggable custom game feature for competitive tournaments.
It is toggleable. In Warcraft 3, the script is implemented as a part of the default UMS triggers for a melee map. I imagine it is no different in SC2.
On April 13 2010 07:16 FrogOfWar wrote: Nice VOD :D - it doesn't serve your argument very well though. Saviors overlord spots the pylon about 80 seconds after TTs nexus falls. Thus the elimination race could have been very similar if TT had been revealed after 60 or 90 seconds automatically. Of course in that case Saviors smarts/luck in scouting it wouldn't have been a factor, but that alone wouldn't have ruined the game.
This. The argument against it has been posed in multiple threads so far but nobody has been able to come up with a single VOD in which having the reveal mechanic would have impacted the match.
I just don't see it worthwhile attempting to change something which has a negative impact on 1 in every 10000 high level matches (probably less) but has a positive impact on 1 of every 20 low level matches. This isn't an issue that affects high level players players at all, but it is a legitimate issue in low level play.
EPT
