EPTPatch 6 Notes - Page 29
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
DT Rushing was nerfed. Expoing off of fast DT Tech was nerfed (and wasn't viable to begin with). honestly, why all the griping? | ||
Insane
United States4991 Posts
On March 27 2010 06:33 Mora wrote: DTs were not nerfed that hard. (their intended use isn't go up against large armies that can detect them. Hellions are better vs them now... OH NOES) DT Rushing was nerfed. Expoing off of fast DT Tech was nerfed (and wasn't viable to begin with). honestly, why all the griping? Why are you being so defensive about DTs and their building being nerfed? It's not a huge nerf to DTs perhaps, but they were already not very good it seemed, so people are justifiably wondering why they were nerfed. No, it probably won't make a big difference for Protoss, but I don't see why you are so mad about everyone complaining about it. | ||
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TerranUp16
United States88 Posts
Stalkers have 35 more total hp (80 shields + 80hp; and those shields regen so you can really use Stalker's speed to their adv) and 1 armor. Factor in the added cost of the Viking, their utility beyond fighting Stalkers (they're not exactly throw-away units), Warp Gate reinforcement of Stalkers (and therefore the build time effect of that along with Chrono Boost even considering Reactor Starports), and that if Vikings are to retreat they are going to take damage while lifting off because it's not exactly instant (nor is it particularly instant to land and they are painfully slow on the ground relatively)... Basically, if you're trading Stalkers with Vikings, man you are having a good day xD More-likely though the Terran player is going to use his Vikings on Kulas Ravine or etc to take advantage of high-ground harass (personally, I'm not going to shove Vikings into a proper ground mix-up unless the game is on the line and suddenly risking the livelihood of my Vikings becomes perfectly fine; otherwise they're just too valuable imo for air superiority and just for the threat of harassing undefended mineral lines). | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On March 27 2010 06:36 Insane wrote: Why are you being so defensive about DTs and their building being nerfed? It's not a huge nerf to DTs perhaps, but they were already not very good it seemed, so people are justifiably wondering why they were nerfed. No, it probably won't make a big difference for Protoss, but I don't see why you are so mad about everyone complaining about it. It's just context. Complaints about banelings i understand; marines, core reactors - sure; scv's - yep. I think it's a little soon to be going up in arms about these things, but i can understand where people are coming from. Hell, i'd even be ok with people complaining that DTs didn't get a buff. But a nerf that's obviously aimed at DT rushing that has no effect on the caliber of players like the ones on this forum, i'm not patient with. This is the forum blizzard should go to for decent feedback, and the shit that's spewing from this thread should make them inclined to never come back. I probably shouldn't get as annoyed as i do, but i guess i can't help it. I've toted around (like an idiot) to a whole bunch of people about how great the SC community is because they're reasonable and thought-out (if also elitist). It's been a desperate and secret hope that the community might bleed into Relic's communities to provide a little stability and sanity. It appears that my glasses were rose-tinted. The SC(2) community is just as repulsive as the rest of gaming communities. Don't worry, if i'm asked again if Blizzard should peruse these forums, my stance will have changed. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:04 PredY wrote: the reactor nerf is actually really huge (it takes really superlong) They buffed it in patch 2 to the reduced time, this patch they set it back to patch 1 build time. Terran can adapt to it. If you need a starport to have a reactor use your factory to build it while you build the starport. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:06 Kralic wrote: They buffed it in patch 2 to the reduced time, this patch they set it back to patch 1 build time. Terran can adapt to it. If you need a starport to have a reactor use your factory to build it while you build the starport. Just need to use your rax in the begging to get your rectors fast for factory or starport, it probably ways set back due to alot of terran still able to basically do a +1 mnm timing pushes to win. | ||
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Leoj
United States396 Posts
Late game I guess, maybe, but you'd still rather be building 2 Marines and a Rax in 50 seconds (Rax in 60) as opposed to one Reactor and no Marines. If I had the patience I'd learn how to macro as Zerg but I've pretty much already given up on that as a lost cause. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On March 27 2010 06:33 Mora wrote: Isn't their intended use to harass? DTs were not nerfed that hard. (their intended use isn't to go up against large armies that can detect them. Hellions are better vs them now... OH NOES) And obviously the later you get them and the more they cost, the less effective they will be. It's a one trick pony as well, so if you get them even later most likely the enemy will have sufficient detection. Considering you need Dark Shrine just in order to get them (which has no further use), it's just a gimmick currently. I'd say this patch pretty much turn them useless (if they werent already), which is sad since it's pretty much the only Protoss tech choice the other races actually have to be wary about. | ||
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
On March 27 2010 06:56 Mora wrote: It's just context. Complaints about banelings i understand; marines, core reactors - sure; scv's - yep. I think it's a little soon to be going up in arms about these things, but i can understand where people are coming from. Hell, i'd even be ok with people complaining that DTs didn't get a buff. But a nerf that's obviously aimed at DT rushing that has no effect on the caliber of players like the ones on this forum, i'm not patient with. This is the forum blizzard should go to for decent feedback, and the shit that's spewing from this thread should make them inclined to never come back. I probably shouldn't get as annoyed as i do, but i guess i can't help it. I've toted around (like an idiot) to a whole bunch of people about how great the SC community is because they're reasonable and thought-out (if also elitist). It's been a desperate and secret hope that the community might bleed into Relic's communities to provide a little stability and sanity. It appears that my glasses were rose-tinted. The SC(2) community is just as repulsive as the rest of gaming communities. Don't worry, if i'm asked again if Blizzard should peruse these forums, my stance will have changed. There are plenty of currently high level players who post here and there is plenty of good analysis of the patch, too. If you seriously thought everyone in the SC community was a great poster, then your glasses were indeed tinted. If you compare the average quality of posts here to the posts on Bnet forums, then I think we're doing a lot better overall. Gaming communities seem to produce a high quantity of noise-signal ratio in general, but if you pay attention to certain players then there's definitely a lot of valuable feedback posted here. It's not an easy task to get rid of all the 'lower-quality' posters, because a lot of them are players who are not great at the game, but are genuinely trying to give productive feedback about it. Banning them engenders a lot of ill-will, and despite the site perhaps being known as elitist compared to many, it's not really my personal wish that TL is known as "that site with a bunch of elitist assholes". Also keep in mind, a good portion of the good posters today were not that way at one point  Also people use a lot of hyperbole to prove points, like saying "X is totally useless and should never ever be gotten" when in actuality a lot of time what they're saying is "X should be buffed". The former statement may not be true, but the latter may very well be true. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:38 Paladia wrote: Isn't their intended use to harass? And obviously the later you get them and the more they cost, the less effective they will be. It's a one trick pony as well, so if you get them even later most likely the enemy will have sufficient detection. Considering you need Dark Shrine just in order to get them (which has no further use), it's just a gimmick currently. I'd say this patch pretty much turn them useless (if they werent already), which is sad since it's pretty much the only Protoss tech choice the other races actually have to be wary about. I don't believe that is their only intended role. I think one of the intentions of their design is to have just 1-3 in a large force. If your enemy does not have detection it will severely punish them. It forces Terran to use scans, zerg to upgrade to and put overseers in jeopardy and Protoss to keep an observer in each attack force (and considering their speed this slows your enemys movement across the map positionally if they fear being without their observer). Yes the DT can harass, but it can cause just as much economic and single battle damage/fear by being included in low quantities in your unit-mix. And this feature of their use does not need to be available early game. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
On March 27 2010 06:33 Mora wrote: DTs were not nerfed that hard. (their intended use isn't to go up against large armies that can detect them. Hellions are better vs them now... OH NOES) DT Rushing was nerfed. Expoing off of fast DT Tech was nerfed (and wasn't viable to begin with). honestly, why all the griping? Ok, so give me one good reason to nerf DT rush. I can only see this being used in noob copper games tbh. Making them light doesn't help at all, but it's not why I complain. You say it yourself: Rushing DTs is NOT viable in the current metagame - so why the hell should they nerf it? | ||
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BentoBox
Canada303 Posts
On March 26 2010 11:26 Blacklizard wrote: Seems clear this patch is designed to test early to mid TvP among a few other things. Very interesting. It's not that they are afraid dark temps are suddenly becoming more powerful vs. terran, the race with the built-in always going to get scan option and cheapest tower/turret option. I mean in BW and SC2 Z and P always had to put up with Dark Templar threats and never had an uhoh button in a scan or a worker that yelled help in SC/BW b/c- it didn't one shot die. It is that they want to test certain things and want to take dark templars out of the picture for this patch. I have a feeling, without Dark Templar as a quick (OK, not quick... zero) threat, they are looking if Protoss can manage vs Terran if they go non-robo tech. Or at least less dependent on robo. Then again immortals are still juicy... so I dunno. But the obvious dynamics that are changed/things they are testing: a. Protoss don't have to worry about SCV/Marine rushes, but do have to worry about bunkers and/or marauders. This patch is testing zealot strength vs certain Terran builds and Marauder strength against all Protoss builds. b. Protoss harass has a chance of killing workers who aren't 60 HP tanks. Colossi can still one shot drones/probes, but SCVs still take 2 shots, so it's not that. Blink harrass? Ummm... I can't see it happening but OK maybe in some insane build on the perfect map. Zealot/HT drop? Yeah, probably. Or just general drops with warp-ins. c. Colossus can't one shot marines. So you may expect more High Templar play. They want to test if Protoss can genuinely advance to mid and/or late game by going mostly all gateway tech. The observer nerf (which is horrible IMO, Protoss always have the worst time scouting early and mid game) also decreases the urge to go Robo tech. d. Just how strong Marauders are in general. e. If Protoss can hang vs. Mutas with the new stalker. That's why no Phoenix buff. Yet. f. If Zerg will use banelings more in general. g. How good ghosts should be. h. Terran mech builds. Oh, and I called that SCV 45 HP change over a decade ago. More to the point I've been playing a ton of Terran lately in SC2, and I think that the drop is absolutely fine... even expected. The only thing bad that could come of the SCV nerf is if they really do die too easily while creating buildings. If so the fix should be that they aren't targetable when building, *except* when building bunkers, to avoid overpowered bunker rushes. Or hell take half damage while building non-bunkers... with the new fancy engine that should be easy. Although their repair speed has been nerfed so hugely from SC/BW, I'm not horribly worried about a bunker rush being overpowered at a glance. Except we still have salvage as Terran. -evil grin- This is still one of the more thought out posts in this thread. It's a beta, people like to overreact. How many who've posted in this thread even have access to Beta? | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
i expect them to release a new patch really quickly after seeing the stats go z100% tp 0% winratio id be z user right now if zvz wasnt so broken and tvt not so brilliant | ||
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
On March 27 2010 02:52 Tropics wrote: yeah its definitely him just being bad dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not how would Demuslim's build put him behind? | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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zee
201 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:53 obesechicken13 wrote: I have a question, if Dustin Browder doesn't know what he's doing, would that still be ok? Like would SC2 not turn out like CnC and be more like SC? I dont believe he's the main balance designer, that would be David Kim. | ||
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