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On March 27 2010 01:11 SLush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 01:07 choboPEon wrote:On March 27 2010 01:03 SLush wrote:On March 26 2010 16:16 zee wrote:
wait... they buffed banelings? :I like they werent imba enough! They weren't. it just increases the damage vs armored so maybe a little bit more viable vs protoss, cuz they were useless for they cost. Makes it pretty viable to break a Terran wall and then get right at a bio ball. In fact, I've seen this in every single TvZ I've played today in Platinum :O That's because you dont know how to defend urself. Don't blame on imbalance if you dont know how to play yet. If you were new to Broodwar you would call a lot of imbalance. But people says the game is perfectly balanced right?
yeah its definitely him just being bad
dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not
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Terran gets a balanced worker and a balanced tier 1 unit, and now it's unplayable? Beats me. Reactor + Marines caused incredible amounts of early-game Marines, which could only be matched by the Zerg making incredible amounts of Zerglings (which happen to melt away against larger numbers of marines). If the Rax time itself was increased, any build that DIDN'T rely on Marines would suffer.
Note that Hellion harass is made much more viable with these changes, while not being overshadowed by Marines; Infernal Preigniters can be researched quicker with the total cost of a FacLab being 200/125, instead of 250/150. Now that Templar are counted as light, Hellions are quite effective at slipping past the main army and sniping them.
It's Blizzard's "subtle" way of making a push towards mech, not to mention that Vikings cost less gas now. Viking on the ground is basically a mech unit that is better than the Stalker in many, many ways.
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On March 27 2010 02:52 Tropics wrote:yeah its definitely him just being bad
dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not
Your example isn't proving the point you're trying to make since demuslim walled in a more effective way vs banelings which nullified the strat, in other words it's not imbalanced
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This "view profile" feature does not work for me at all. I just cannot click on it. Have I just played people who are not ranked until now or does it just not work ?
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The 20-->25 sec build time increase on the marine doesn't seem that huge. To make 20 marines in 100 seconds, before you needed 4 rax, now you need 5 rax.
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I'm sorry but 50 minerals makes maybe like a 2 second faster hellion, and if you want a reactor its gonna take even longer. They hardly buff mech and nerf bio to oblivion
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I wonder how the SCV and Marine nerfs affect defending cheeses like 6-pool. Anybody has already some experience?
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ill copy paste one of my posts from another thread here,
putting the dts debate aside(because i still have not seen enought to comment on it), p still doesnt have a good all around ground unit(med tech unit from basic buildings aka gateway for p with good range that attacks air/flying and counters a decent amount of units, basically that can be used against every race) like the other races
also stalker vs zealot is ridiculous, its handicaping pvp.. theres so little diversity in the mu
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I think people are really overreacting about this baneling buff. I mean, they're good vs rines becaues they splash and rines have low hp. That won't change at all. Marauders are bigger and have more hp so they spread out splash and also take less damage.
Pre change:
15-1 = 14 damage vs a marauder
= 9 banelings to kill a 125 hp 1 armour marauder. (A bit more efficient when bunched but big marauder frames really means you won't splash that much.
500 mins 225 gas. WAY MORE THAN A COLOSSUS to take down one marauder. (Because of the way splash works you would need more to take down like 3 marauders as well)
Post change:
20-1 = 19 damage vs a marauder.
=7 banelings to kill a 1 armour marauder
=350 mins 175 gas. MAYBE efficient in terms of minerals but never in terms of gas.
So you still REALLY need to micro them against marauder/marine because you can blow enough banelings to kill all his marines and kill only a couple marauders.
Result: Banelings are still worthless except really for marine hard counter, and maybe zealot/templar counter as well, and also baneling bombs on workers might be deadly. Still ridiculously inefficient vs anything not light, no real change. No doubt, they are still amazingly effective vs marines and I really hate this emphasis on mass marauder, it's already popular and got buffed. I was always a marine fan. Really weak vs splash but more firepower.
Other changes:
Double hellion harass openings nerfed a lot, my version used 5 rines to harass early which is not viable at all with slowed rine production/reactor production.
Slower rine/reactor production also means more minerals for teching. They probably want to encourage that.
Terrans given a lot more gas to encourage raven/ghost usage,
More minerals used with your vikings/ghosts means smaller core unit groups.
ZvZ:
Roach burrow now largely going to be unused. I never saw any real abuse of burrow micro so I always felt burrow being too weak not too strong, since you also lose the units firepower when you burrow it.
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On March 27 2010 02:52 Tropics wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 01:11 SLush wrote:On March 27 2010 01:07 choboPEon wrote:On March 27 2010 01:03 SLush wrote:On March 26 2010 16:16 zee wrote:
wait... they buffed banelings? :I like they werent imba enough! They weren't. it just increases the damage vs armored so maybe a little bit more viable vs protoss, cuz they were useless for they cost. Makes it pretty viable to break a Terran wall and then get right at a bio ball. In fact, I've seen this in every single TvZ I've played today in Platinum :O That's because you dont know how to defend urself. Don't blame on imbalance if you dont know how to play yet. If you were new to Broodwar you would call a lot of imbalance. But people says the game is perfectly balanced right? yeah its definitely him just being bad dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not
Just wall with 2 buildings (no supply depot).
You have to think outside of the box here AKA not like SC1.
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On March 27 2010 03:47 SLush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 02:52 Tropics wrote:On March 27 2010 01:11 SLush wrote:On March 27 2010 01:07 choboPEon wrote:On March 27 2010 01:03 SLush wrote:On March 26 2010 16:16 zee wrote:
wait... they buffed banelings? :I like they werent imba enough! They weren't. it just increases the damage vs armored so maybe a little bit more viable vs protoss, cuz they were useless for they cost. Makes it pretty viable to break a Terran wall and then get right at a bio ball. In fact, I've seen this in every single TvZ I've played today in Platinum :O That's because you dont know how to defend urself. Don't blame on imbalance if you dont know how to play yet. If you were new to Broodwar you would call a lot of imbalance. But people says the game is perfectly balanced right? yeah its definitely him just being bad dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not Just wall with 2 buildings (no supply depot). You have to think outside of the box here AKA not like SC1.
Funny how Blizzard themselves advocate for walling with supply depots by the submerging mechanics. Oh well, it could have worked if they also didn't make them paperthin at the same time.
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SCV Nerf happened because of the Marine+SCV all-in rushes.
Well deserved.
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Although I am protoss, and agree that emp needed to be nerfed, I don't think blizzard or many other people period considered the magnitude of the change that was made. I imagine the conversation balance testers had about emp :
Tester 1 : Emp so imba
Tester 2 : I know rite, why don't we nerf it, and take its aoe down from 3 to 2?
Tester 1 : Yah sounds good, lets go tell the programmers, then go on break!
Apparently blizzard balance testers don't remember algebra from high school...
*AOE Change from 3 to 2, means that the diameter of the AOE is now 2 instead of 3. This means that the radius of the emp becomes 1, instead of 1.5. Result? The area of effect is now about 3.14, compared to an original 7.1. The original EMP was TWICE as powerful as the new emp! Watching orb's stream last night, in a TvP match, the terran player's emps were very ineffective, and I'm pretty sure my logic explains that.
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On March 27 2010 03:53 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 03:47 SLush wrote:On March 27 2010 02:52 Tropics wrote:On March 27 2010 01:11 SLush wrote:On March 27 2010 01:07 choboPEon wrote:On March 27 2010 01:03 SLush wrote:On March 26 2010 16:16 zee wrote:
wait... they buffed banelings? :I like they werent imba enough! They weren't. it just increases the damage vs armored so maybe a little bit more viable vs protoss, cuz they were useless for they cost. Makes it pretty viable to break a Terran wall and then get right at a bio ball. In fact, I've seen this in every single TvZ I've played today in Platinum :O That's because you dont know how to defend urself. Don't blame on imbalance if you dont know how to play yet. If you were new to Broodwar you would call a lot of imbalance. But people says the game is perfectly balanced right? yeah its definitely him just being bad dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not Just wall with 2 buildings (no supply depot). You have to think outside of the box here AKA not like SC1. Funny how Blizzard themselves advocate for walling with supply depots by the submerging mechanics. Oh well, it could have worked if they also didn't make them paperthin at the same time.
Funny how you can make exactly the same argument with raxes and factories being able to fly!!
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On March 27 2010 03:25 palanq wrote:
The 20-->25 sec build time increase on the marine doesn't seem that huge. To make 20 marines in 100 seconds, before you needed 4 rax, now you need 5 rax.
Thats because game plays on faster settings, meaning its not 5s actually, but you have to apply 133% game speed.
So in reality Marines build around 3,4s slower.
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im not really sure what steps im going to take as terran. My fast expo strat isnt really viable anymore. And its hard to scout the expo timing properly, when they can just expo after they kill the scv. So it seems terran is gonna have to play a safe 1 base for awhile.
But the biggest problem to me is when you feel your opp is making alot of lings. and you decide to go hellions and expo. which seems pretty standard... if he has a few roaches when i get there my harass is in vain and he can follow up with a push.. and if i dont have like 12 marauders i lose right there... so im not 100% sure on what we're expected to do... PF expand i suppose.. cant really see orbital working too well on some maps like blistering sands and scrap station
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On March 27 2010 03:12 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 02:52 Tropics wrote:yeah its definitely him just being bad
dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not Your example isn't proving the point you're trying to make since demuslim walled in a more effective way vs banelings which nullified the strat, in other words it's not imbalanced
Your logic is flawed here. "Can be countered" doesn't mean there is balance. You have to consider what lengths you have to go through in order to counter it, and then decide if that is reasonable. It's the same argument regarding microing vs banelings as well. If the terran has to work 5 times harder (or in this case, heavily restrict their build) just to produce a neutral outcome, there is something wrong.
On March 27 2010 04:11 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 03:25 palanq wrote:
The 20-->25 sec build time increase on the marine doesn't seem that huge. To make 20 marines in 100 seconds, before you needed 4 rax, now you need 5 rax. Thats because game plays on faster settings, meaning its not 5s actually, but you have to apply 133% game speed. So in reality Marines build around 3,4s slower.
The percentage increase still remains the same, regardless of how much faster the time is. When you would normally have made 5 marines, now you will have 4.
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read 4 pages of comments, so I don't know if I'm repeating anyone, but DT nerf is probably cuz marines got nerfed pretty badly. By reducing marine amounts in armies, DT marine sniping becomes more powerful, so hence the de-buff.
It wouldn't be so bad if DT's didn't already cost an arm and a leg.
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On March 27 2010 03:47 SLush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 02:52 Tropics wrote:On March 27 2010 01:11 SLush wrote:On March 27 2010 01:07 choboPEon wrote:On March 27 2010 01:03 SLush wrote:On March 26 2010 16:16 zee wrote:
wait... they buffed banelings? :I like they werent imba enough! They weren't. it just increases the damage vs armored so maybe a little bit more viable vs protoss, cuz they were useless for they cost. Makes it pretty viable to break a Terran wall and then get right at a bio ball. In fact, I've seen this in every single TvZ I've played today in Platinum :O That's because you dont know how to defend urself. Don't blame on imbalance if you dont know how to play yet. If you were new to Broodwar you would call a lot of imbalance. But people says the game is perfectly balanced right? yeah its definitely him just being bad dimaga didnt roll over every terran barring demuslim (who did a build exclusively to hard counter it, that would put him behind if he didnt know it was coming) in the last zotac cup using this build, definitely not Just wall with 2 buildings (no supply depot). You have to think outside of the box here AKA not like SC1.
u are from wc3 and obiously have no clue about sc bw
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On March 27 2010 03:55 tyreek wrote:
SCV Nerf happened because of the Marine+SCV all-in rushes.
Well deserved.
You cut an SCV to start up your production slightly earlier because you won't need the small amount of income you'll lose and it'll compensate for the sligthly slower marine build time and you get the same 4 min all-in versus protoss. SCV hp nerf barely affects the end results, the marines still cut down Zealots and probes so fast with the SCV meatshield. It's one less zealot hit an SCV can take and a little less effective toe to toe with probes, which translates to just using a tiny bit more micro on the SCVs. Of my TvP so far where Toss doesn't go forge, they've all been won with the all-in.
Poorly thought out fix.
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EPT
