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Problem: I feel as though teching towards a zerg melee in any matchup is very awkward, messy, expensive, risky and hard to pull off against someone who is a good player and knows what you're up to.
Reason: seems to be safer and more cost effective to utilise roaches/ hydras/ infestors or spire tech. Upgrading melee attack and teching to hive does not benefit your early or mid game. It just costs alot of money which could otherwise be used on something more immediately effective.
Solution1 : Possibly shorten upgrade times or costs for ultralisk armor, ultralisk movement and zergling attack speed. These seem to take FOREVER and are way to expensive considering the effectiveness of the units. All your zerglings and ultralisks are useless until they have all been upgraded.
Alternative solution: At the evolution chamber, have a more expensive upgrade for zerg which upgrades the attack of all zerg ground, rather than a seperate upgrade for melee and range. This would also have the bonus of slightly nerfing roaches in terms of upgrade cost. This would allow someone to transition from roaches or hydras into something different late game.
Note: I would only suggest one of these solutions, not both.
Edit: Sorry this might be in the wrong forum, can a mod move it to strategy if that is more appropriate?
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I am in a similar position very rarely upgrading melee attack because I just don't use those units until endgame in most matchups. I don't know if I agree with your proposed solutions but I don't have better alternatives off hand, I just wanted to /agree with this strongly. zerg melee is severly lacking and sense we have such few units I think that's where they should be adding.
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I think they are doing this to get out of the age old zerg's upgrade of carapace then melee, and only sometimes missile for hydra openings. It would've been nice if Roaches upgrades were upgraded through missile, but I guess they want us to upgrade both, and most games do see an appearance of both units.
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On March 25 2010 12:21 7 wrote:
I think they are doing this to get out of the age old zerg's upgrade of carapace then melee, and only sometimes missile for hydra openings. It would've been nice if Roaches upgrades were upgraded through missile, but I guess they want us to upgrade both, and most games do see an appearance of both units.
Roaches ARE upgraded through missile. This is what im getting at. It seems more cost effective to upgrade missile for your roaches and hydras, and forget about melee.
My belief is that this, combined with the fact that there are so many extra upgrades for ultras and zerglings late game which are expenisve and take a long time, means that ultras and zerglings wont be used much.
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Problem is the ultra just isn't the unit it once was....because tier 1.5 - 2 is so much stronger in SCII. Mauraders and Immortals rape ultras upgrades or no. The adrenal gland upgrade for lings is also not what it used to be.
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If ultra became a go to unit again, melee would be useful again.
Also their upgrade benefit is pretty crappy at +2 per attack (+5 for buildings). I mean it isn't crappy, but it's kind of meh considering how few ultras you'll make all game, it might be better to just get another ultra or two instead of upgrading.
However another consideration some people should make is that melee upgrades multiply with the zergling adrenal upgrade. None of the missile units get this benefit. That means if your attack upgrade upgrades your zerglings from 5 to 8, that's a 1.6x upgrade, and multiply that by 1.2 for the adrenal glands for a 1.92x upgrade (double damage, worst case). That's a pretty big difference.
For comparison, a roach goes from 16 to 22, which is a 1.375x gain in damage. Hydras only gain 1.25x for all upgrades.
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Get more than one evo, which I know is blatantly obvious but your post seems to forget this concept. Upgrades aren't "either or" going into mid game its what to double research.
Upgrade melee mid game when lings start mixing into your unit composition a lot more again as it moves into late game.
Pretty much just like sc1, melee was rarely seen in early game tech but that didn't mean it needed to be changed.
I do agree ultras are a bit odd... they can be countered by mid tech units (immortal maurader) and can't do much of anything to the other races late game tech because by and large its air. I'm finding more and more that its a no brainer choice to go broodlord and the ultra is relegated to the odd zvz ling fight or a silly terran going redic marine count because he is mineral rich and gas starved.
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On March 25 2010 12:11 Wretched wrote:
Problem: I feel as though teching towards a zerg melee in any matchup is very awkward, messy, expensive, risky and hard to pull off against someone who is a good player and knows what you're up to.
wahhh???? how is it any different from getting ranged? why are you getting melee? you going mass lings? early ultra? how is it more expensive then ranged? you really think 100 minerals and 100 gas going to put you behind so much that your going to lose?
i have no idea what your talking about
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On March 25 2010 14:02 Synwave wrote:
Get more than one evo, which I know is blatantly obvious but your post seems to forget this concept. Upgrades aren't "either or" going into mid game its what to double research.
Upgrade melee mid game when lings start mixing into your unit composition a lot more again as it moves into late game.
Pretty much just like sc1, melee was rarely seen in early game tech but that didn't mean it needed to be changed.
I do agree ultras are a bit odd... they can be countered by mid tech units (immortal maurader) and can't do much of anything to the other races late game tech because by and large its air. I'm finding more and more that its a no brainer choice to go broodlord and the ultra is relegated to the odd zvz ling fight or a silly terran going redic marine count because he is mineral rich and gas starved.
do you want to design a build for me where you make 3 evo chambers while teching to hive, upgrade them all constantly and still win?
Didn't think so .
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On March 25 2010 14:06 zealing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 12:11 Wretched wrote:
Problem: I feel as though teching towards a zerg melee in any matchup is very awkward, messy, expensive, risky and hard to pull off against someone who is a good player and knows what you're up to. wahhh???? how is it any different from getting ranged? why are you getting melee? you going mass lings? early ultra? how is it more expensive then ranged? you really think 100 minerals and 100 gas going to put you behind so much that your going to lose? i have no idea what your talking about
Im NOT using melee because its not as good as other options. Thats what im talking about. Theres no point having ultras in the game if no one uses them.
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To be honest, without darkswarm, melee isn't going to be an option vs ranged late game
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well, in sc1 you make what? 10lings pre muta going 3hat? they are just for stopping rushes, scouting, map presence till about 5:30m when the mnm comes out. beyond that you used them, maybe 12-36 with mutas while you rushed hive/3rd. or to be sacrificed for lurker support.
i guess what im trying to say is i agree with your post. lings are awkward and messy. just like sc1. you can have powerful all ins with speed upgrade, or just use them super late game.
i guess i feel that hydra/roaches/infester groups are so dominate. its going to take awhile for terrans/tosses to really get comfortable dealing with/killing till we can see the end tiers often. in which case upgrades will be a part of the BO
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Simple Story:
Cheap strong other T1 Unit than lings (Roach) -> Bad Ultras/Strong Hydras/Strong T3 Roach upgrade -> No reason to upgrade meele before missile.
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Okay, so things are different than they were in SC1. I don't see the problem. Melee isn't completely useless, and I'm okay with it being not the focus.
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At the very least they could make movement speed or chitenous plating for ultras cheaper or remove one of them and give it to them standard.
Seriously, i have to spend like 3 days upgrading my ultras once i get my damn cavern.
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On March 25 2010 20:33 Wretched wrote:
At the very least they could make movement speed or chitenous plating for ultras cheaper or remove one of them and give it to them standard.
Seriously, i have to spend like 3 days upgrading my ultras once i get my damn cavern.
Get two.
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I agree, ultralisks feel really weak late game; they're almost not a viable tech choice. AFAIK they're only really good against mass basic units (marines, zealots, zerglings), which are rarely the core part of an opponent's army by that point (since e.g. roaches counter those basic units just as well, and are a solid unit otherwise).
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I really agree here.
The thing about SC1, was that ranged attack only gave you a worthwhile bonus on 1 unit, the hydralisk. Yes it upgraded lurker attack, but since lurker did splash damage, the upgrade wasn't necessary.
Now in SC2, the ranged attack helps both hydras & roaches. Roaches are fantastic units, and a fully upgraded roach with all the roach warren upgrades is really cost effective.
Add to that the fact that ultras have decent hard-counters (thor, immortal, marauders, stalkers w/blink), and zergling DPS is overall less than in SC1 (plus the adrenal gland upgrade doesn't speed up attack as much as it did in SC1), and ultra/ling is a lot less attractive in SC2. I also believe this makes Hive less attractive in general. Level 3 upgrades are extremely gas-expensive SC2, a game in which gas is much more scarce than in SC1. Because of these reasons, I usually only see people going hive to get broodlords or OC upgrade for roach.
Against all 3 races, I upgrade to 2-2 ranged/carapace, and only start upgrading melee once I'm at 2-2 ranged/carapace and I haven't moved to hive yet.
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I like having melee/ranged/armor for zerg, no other class has this. Zerg have their own special flavor, I would hate to see it removed.
Also, you seem to be forgetting that banelings & broodlings (spawned from broodlord attack) benefit from melee attack upgrades. Overall, each upgrade has a purpose and combining them would remove a lot of strategy and build designs.
*EDIT*: Someone said something about people NOT using ultras... I use them all the time, they are very very good late game. If you say the game doesn't go to late game then you probably are either facing bad people or die to quickly yourself.
obviously going ultras every game is not something you can do, but they are a very very powerful unit, and worth the investment.
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EPT
