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I do think snipe should be buffed as it is barely useful at all atm. I have never used it or seen it used in any game. I have theorycrafted some interesting plays with it but ultimately it's extremely situational, and even then marginally better than many alternatives. It should have a longer range and/or a debuff of some type such as silence (seems redundant), snare (marauders do this), stun, or an armor debuff (rp could be explained that the ghost exposes a weakness in the enemy). The problem with the ability is that it is only good vs templar but EMP is much stronger against them, with the exception of this mechanic that you have brought to our attention. A simple range increase would seem to be the solution. Do we want the range to be enough that a ghost can kill the templar before he feedbacks, or so that the 2nd ghost shot (assuming shift-qued) lands simoultaneously with feedback? It would seem the latter is more balanced as the ghost can (maybe) run away and fight in another battle while the Templar is now dead.
Another solution is to allow the ghost to EMP from inside a bunker (possibly even increase its range when fired from a bunker) but remain immune to feedback while inside. This would start to shift the matchup back towards how it was in broodwar where the terran needs to slowly push up to the protoss. Before it was with mines and turrets, now with leapfrogging bunkers and using salvage.
A third solution which is more involved would be to turn snipe into an alternate Prone mode for the ghost. A problem is that the ghost now has 2 different forms to toggle which can be used simoultaneously along with a castable ability meaning the unit needs 5 hotkeys to control. Anyway, prone would make the ghost move more slowly but increase its range, increase the bonus damage it does (only vs light or overall) dramatically, and reduce its firing speed. Again, moving the mechanic more towards BW's big militaristic pushes for territory as the Terran slowly creeps forward toward the Protoss. Also this would give the ghost an alternative use besides killing Templars. They could be dropped on cliffs to harass workers with a ~10 range shot. The latter goal can also be accomplished with the +range on snipe when inside a bunker.
Cloak should seemingly protect the ghost from feedback though I am unsure exactly what the detection range of an observer is. Does anyone have data on this?
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I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game.
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Russian Federation85 Posts
So as far i understood it, Orb describes a static situation in PvT of the unawareness of the T vs HT's, so they are in the disadvantage because they are overwhelmed by it.
If you look it the simple way:
P has an unit which is pretty useful vs T's mass casters.(without upgrades)
T has an unit which is useful vs all P units.(without upgrades)
If you ask me that looks more or less pretty equal. Give people the chance to get used to the situation and let the dynamic decide if it's imbalanced or just a currently uncommon situation. You say that just a few Toss are going for HT's, this means that T has no reason to practice / adjust against them because it's so rare that it doesn't matter currently. So there is absolute no reason for rising the balance flag.
Edit: I wonder myself why people rise the balance flag before even the problem is clear. Even if you(Orb) say that currently the player prefers to send their casters at the front, there's no reason to adjust the game to the style of the players.
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good point about air units, they do seem to also have trouble with this ability and I'm not sure it's good balance for them to always have to be around a ghost to be able to cast. And even then, that's assuming that the feedback vs snipe mechanic is changed as many of the people in this thread are suggesting.
Perhaps the solution is to make feedback a temporary silence instead of having the damage component? The duration of the silence could depend on the energy of the caster so a full energy caster ready to unload would take a couple of seconds while a ghost with just enough to emp would only have his cast delayed slightly. Or feedback could be a dot that drains mana instead of doing its effect insantly. In effect forcing the unit to cast ASAP (to empty its mana pool) even if it's not the ideal time.
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Nice rep orb, but how do you alter your strat if they go banshees or go full air banshee/viking combo?
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On March 16 2010 05:19 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:25 -orb- wrote:
Let me start by saying I am a protoss player. I am near the top of my platinum division at around 1800 rating if I remember correctly. At its current state, I find myself in PvT doing everything I can to avoid harass/damage early game and trying to just make it to the late game as I have a very high win rate when I get to the late game in PvT without using a single colossus or immortal.
What exactly do you do to avoid harass/damage early game? You won't get psi storm in time for the fast 1-ghost EMP push, and you have no colossus backbone to rely upon to do your splash damage. Are you teching to psi storm after your first colossus?
I don't get a first colossus. I don't get an early robo which is what helps me hold off the push. Sure, I don't ahve obs, but I use probes/pylons/xel'naga sight things to scout. I usually can get my first templar out (without storm finished yet tho) around the time the early ghost push comes, and I generally just feedback the ghost (since they'll for sure only have one ghost at that point) and force field my ramp/choke to delay until I have a sizable-enough army to engage. Usually the terran is teching pretty hard to get that early ghost and their army isn't TOO large so if you successfully prevent the EMP you should be able to take the army especially if you give it another warp-gate cooldown or two through blocking with force fields.
While warp is researching I usually get two stalkers asap to prevent against early reapers (almost every good terran likes to get one early reaper to try to harass probes if protoss was greedy and didn't get an early stalker) or early hellions.
Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:57 -orb- wrote:On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet? Right. I've been told by a lot of the top terrans I've played that I'm the first one they've seen do this, but it's so powerful if executed correctly (I think this is the reason so many tosses don't use it, they'd rather attack-move with mass colossi than have to feedback every ghost meshed in with the terran army) that I imagine more protosses will start using it soon. I don't think going straight templar without any colossi will ever become popular in mainstream PvT, unless major gameplay/stat changes are made. Colossi are reliable and mis-micro-ing them for a split second won't cost you the battle - you can't say the same bout HT because of how vulnerable they are - I could see Terran players sac'ing ghosts at various points before the "big battle" just to EMP your army.
Well see this is where the balance is tricky. In my personal opinion the templar build has more potential than the colossus build, but due to the difficulty of microing it a lot of protosses will surely shy away from it (kind of like doing corsair reaver in pvz broodwar... it could be very powerful but if you mis-micro'd (meaning the toss) you basically auto-lost
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game.
Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P.
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On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P.
EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide).
The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.
Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc...
EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away.
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On March 16 2010 05:59 Whiplash wrote:
Nice rep orb, but how do you alter your strat if they go banshees or go full air banshee/viking combo?
I basically don't have to alter at all except that I get obs a bit earlier (well same robo timing prolly but start building obs earlier) and get some more stalkers to support/kill off the banshees because feedback will just rape the hell out of banshees.
Same thing if they go for dropship play. It's all about your map awareness. If you put obs around the map and utilize the sight statue things and watch for incoming dropships you can almost always fully prevent them by feedbacking the dropshop before it has a chance to drop units off.
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On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away.
Sure it does, you're just not thinking about the other side of it. When a terran goes for ghosts (which almost all do) you have to make a choice between trying to outmicro him with templar or just being like "well I guess i can't take any caster units because they will be EMP'd and I should take units that have high hp and low shields." it's the same thing as you not wanting to have medivacs or ravens or at least having htem have high energy because they can be feedbacked.
Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac?
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On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away.
I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you.
Going off of what I do understand:
When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either.
I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.-
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If the HTs are in front of P's army, they are most dangerous but also very vulnerable to whatever units you might have. If they are not in front though, EMP the units that are in front before you get feedbacked and then snipe the HTs, since you can get 1 sniper round off per Ghost before you are hit. You can't get killed by Feedback if you have very little energy. The Ghost will regen 25 energy and be usable for another snipe very quickly if he is alive.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Snipe oughtta bypass shields, that'd be cool. It'd one-shot templar, but leave zealots with less HP but their shield intact. something like that.
I completely agree with orb though, and have found templar openings to be a shitload more effective than collosus openings
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sniper shot has been useless increase the freaking damage to like 50
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On March 16 2010 05:44 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps Pro ass skills yo
Well from watching a few reps of you.... you're pretty far from that -.-
No offense intended, just sayin
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Valhalla18444 Posts
yeah, feel free to keep your opinions on the skill of other players to yourself, fayth
r4j2ill, snipe damage is 45 lol
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meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
I think the sniper shot bypassing shield is somewhat a neat idea btw, but I just think Orb is kind of wrong considering his skill level from the replays I've watched, I mean you usually balance the game according to top players don't you? I really don't think feedback is that OP and that we can't do anything against it, if anything I think it evens out TvP
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On March 16 2010 06:23 -orb- wrote:
Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac?
Because a dead medivac doesn't have units inside it anymore, orb. 
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You are assuming the terran wont scout your HT tech, and will rush ghosts... Do you still get robo?
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EPT
