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On March 16 2010 06:55 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:44 -orb- wrote:On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps Pro ass skills yo Well from watching a few reps of you.... you're pretty far from that -.- No offense intended, just sayin
Well considering, unlike in sc:bw, you can just tab to your HTs and shift-queue feedback on the ghosts if you have vision, then the superior AI will take over and sort out all the proximity and energy issues for you automatically and feedback outranges EMP..
Btw I have agree with a previous post that it is suddenly feeling very retarded that blizz decided to slap some low use abilities and for that reason energy on some units (thors, overseers etc) so now HTs can feedback them.. and medivacs, they'll die to one feedback but you can't really avoid getting feedback'ed (in a stand-off) unless you wound your own units so they can blow their energy, or EMP them which makes them useless..
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If you have 3+ ghosts and you don't clump them it's pretty hard for the p to feedback every single one. And you really only need 2 emps to get almost every P unit, one ghost can easily get off both those emps too if it's like the typical TvPs I've been experiencing so far.
Can't say I've ever used the snipe ability in a serious game. I guess it could be decent for worker harass maybe? I mean it's easier to just emp the hts than snipe them currently. It would be nice if ghosts had longer range like they did in sc1 though.
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seriously from watching his reps, I have like 5 ghosts by the time he has his templars out, unless you use some super fast templar build (which is then pretty much owned by cloaked banshees) it's almost impossible to feedback EVERY ghost without 1 EMP going off
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On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
I think the sniper shot bypassing shield is somewhat a neat idea btw, but I just think Orb is kind of wrong considering his skill level from the replays I've watched, I mean you usually balance the game according to top players don't you? I really don't think feedback is that OP and that we can't do anything against it, if anything I think it evens out TvP
Why do you feel the need to slander me without reason?
I dominated #1 in my platinum 1v1 division the entire first week of beta until I fell behind due to going home for spring break and now I've consistently been top 6 ever since.
What do you expect me to say when you so condescendingly say "im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps" when it's obvious that I've been doing it in my games. You act as if you don't believe me when I've done it live on stream with hundreds of people watching me emp 4+ ghosts before they're able to get off an EMP on my army.
I don't get what your beef is with TL moderating, they do an excellent job and largely thanks to them tl.net is one of the cleanest forums out there.
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I recall you saying "all you annoying noobs bla bla bla" when you're in fact not as good as you claim to be, I mean the terran who couldnt emp you prob forgot about emping until he realized u had feedbacked em, if terran EMP asap while you click feedback it's impossible that you feedback em all, how can you feedback 6 ghosts in 0.5 second?
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On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
maybe its because orb streams his games for the entertainment of anyone who wants to watch.
maybe its because orb is a veteran poster on tl, and makes good posts.
maybe its because he actually brings up valid points, plays against very high skill players and beats them with this.
or maybe because you do none of the above?
seriously cant see why you'd attack his skill level when he has a pretty damn good elo
On March 16 2010 07:55 Fayth wrote:
I recall you saying "all you annoying noobs bla bla bla" when you're in fact not as good as you claim to be, I mean the terran who couldnt emp you prob forgot about emping until he realized u had feedbacked em, if terran EMP asap while you click feedback it's impossible that you feedback em all, how can you feedback 6 ghosts in 0.5 second?
maintain vision with obs, shift queue feedback? not TOO difficult
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On March 16 2010 08:00 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
maybe its because orb streams his games for the entertainment of anyone who wants to watch. maybe its because orb is a veteran poster on tl, and makes good posts. maybe its because he actually brings up valid points, plays against very high skill players and beats them with this. or maybe because you do none of the above? seriously cant see why you'd attack his skill level when he has a pretty damn good elo
what, I beat better players than he does wtf, why would I say that otherwise, I've also been posting here for way longer than he did, I was just inactive for a while (when I quit bw basically)
I can stream if you want.... I don't really know how though
anything else you wanna know?
All I wanna say is people shudn't jump on the idea saying "yes you're right, nerf P again or buff T so we can easily take care of templars now" when it isn't really that imbalanced at all
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well it has nothing to do with imbalance then, terran just musn't make the mistake of letting an obs follow him all around the map on top of his units....
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if snipe bypassed plasma shields that would be pretty fun
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On March 16 2010 08:03 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 08:00 TheAntZ wrote:On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
maybe its because orb streams his games for the entertainment of anyone who wants to watch. maybe its because orb is a veteran poster on tl, and makes good posts. maybe its because he actually brings up valid points, plays against very high skill players and beats them with this. or maybe because you do none of the above? seriously cant see why you'd attack his skill level when he has a pretty damn good elo what, I beat better players than he does wtf, why would I say that otherwise, I've also been posting here for way longer than he did, I was just inactive for a while (when I quit bw basically) I can stream if you want.... I don't really know how though anything else you wanna know? All I wanna say is people shudn't jump on the idea saying "yes you're right, nerf P again or buff T so we can easily take care of templars now" when it isn't really that imbalanced at all
pics and reps or it didnt happen
also, adding snipe as an option just makes the game more fun, and I dont see how it brings about an imbalance
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If you had actually ever read my post you'd know I didn't say TvP is imbalanced because of this, I said I'm forseeing a possible imbalance once the game gets up to the highest level.
You're so disrespectful and condescending, it's really insulting.
It's like you have some personal vendetta against me for some reason I still fail to recognize
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Once the game gets up to the highest level I would like to assume the terran will scout the HT tech and will not go ghosts w/o cloak... Do you still get robo before HT?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
it's not a personal vendetta, he's just a self-entitled ass who thinks he can talk shit about whoever he wants and people will respect it because he used to dt drop Veg back in the day
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On March 16 2010 06:23 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. Sure it does, you're just not thinking about the other side of it. When a terran goes for ghosts (which almost all do) you have to make a choice between trying to outmicro him with templar or just being like "well I guess i can't take any caster units because they will be EMP'd and I should take units that have high hp and low shields." it's the same thing as you not wanting to have medivacs or ravens or at least having htem have high energy because they can be feedbacked. Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac?
I understand that, but I still feel that feedback restrict terran player more that EMP protoss. Sure I can be biased I admit that. I'm also all for nerfing EMP if it really restrict protoss players too much.
About medivacs - I was specifically speaking about drops. How am I supposed to drop a protoss who has decent map awareness and HT ready? The storm is already pain in the ass and the fact that my medivacs has their health halved by feedback before they can even unload something makes it almost impossible.
You really don't see any problems with the fact that almost every Terran air unit is very vulnerable to feedback? Templar's still have storm, so they own mass of low health units aswell. Basically aside tanks, hellions and vikings there isn't a terran unit which is not hard countered by HT.
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Why can't T just cloak his ghost, scan his own army to kill obs, then engage? If you do that, pretty much the entirety of templar tech becomes useless and you win right there.
Alternatively, why can't he EMP a medivac, put the ghost in there and drop it to emp when needed?
I really don't see how this is broken, or could be come broken.
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In regard to Medic&Marine vs. High Templars, think about it. HT is arguably a hard counter to M&M (I'd say it's more a rigid counter. The outcome will depend on the speed and actions of the two armies moreso than on the specifics of the units) but this can happen in one of two ways, both of which end up in negating the Medivacs.
Either A) You snipe all the Medivacs with Feedback and they die, leaving a bunch of Marines without heals which are reasonably effective, depending on their upgrade level. Without heals, your ground forces are more effectively matched against them.
Or B) You storm the M&M and it all takes heavy damage, the Medivacs run out of energy, and your ground forces are therefore more effectively matched against them.
Sometimes when you're lucky, C) You feedback the Medivacs with the Marines inside, macro counter with chargelots and other forces and maintain your advantage, good game, everyone can go back to Aiur and ride rainbow ponies in the sunshine.
When Ghosts are involved though you, as Protoss, don't know where the emp could come from. T should be keeping the ghosts hidden, on a separate hotkey, perhaps in a flanking position where an observer doesn't just get to go doopty doo i'm rightclicked on you. One scan and a Ghost can shoot down an observer... DO EET. Smart ghosts are going to Rape (with a capital R) High Templars and just about anything else Protoss has unless he counters appropriately but if your Temps all get shot in the brains by shiftclicking ghosts hiding in the bushes like VC in the trees then you're going to lose! The key thing in both cases, is that HT and Ghosts counter each other, and the skill and scouting\vision intel of the players is what determines which is going to happen. Nobody says Ghosts have to be milling about in your bio ball waiting to get hit with AE spells or brain-exploded by feedback... :|
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On March 16 2010 08:53 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:23 -orb- wrote:On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. Sure it does, you're just not thinking about the other side of it. When a terran goes for ghosts (which almost all do) you have to make a choice between trying to outmicro him with templar or just being like "well I guess i can't take any caster units because they will be EMP'd and I should take units that have high hp and low shields." it's the same thing as you not wanting to have medivacs or ravens or at least having htem have high energy because they can be feedbacked. Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac? I understand that, but I still feel that feedback restrict terran player more that EMP protoss. Sure I can be biased I admit that. I'm also all for nerfing EMP if it really restrict protoss players too much. About medivacs - I was specifically speaking about drops. How am I supposed to drop a protoss who has decent map awareness and HT ready? The storm is already pain in the ass and the fact that my medivacs has their health halved by feedback before they can even unload something makes it almost impossible. You really don't see any problems with the fact that almost every Terran air unit is very vulnerable to feedback? Templar's still have storm, so they own mass of low health units aswell. Basically aside tanks, hellions and vikings there isn't a terran unit which is not hard countered by HT.
This is why I feel you should be able to snipe HTs.
As for drops... a terran can protect their base from being dropped (or even scouted by obs) with turrets which are much more cost effective than a protoss putting cannons everywhere. Why should a terran be able to protect himself but not a protoss?
Besides which, if the person has map awareness and puts units in place before your dropship gets there then it doesn't matter if the units are stalkers or a high templar, either way if you just let the dropship come into range with them shooting the wohle time it will die.
Also, a medivac will only die if it's either full hp or very close (don't know the actual amount). I've feedbacked medivacs coming for drops tons of times without them dying.
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i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ?
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On March 16 2010 06:23 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you. Going off of what I do understand: When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either. I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.-
I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground.
Stimming marines means I have to go bio pretty much every game if I want to use my only transport unit. Going mech -> medivacs full of energy -> one feedback = dead medivacs and everything in it.
The cloak for banshee is pretty expensive upgrade, so no, they cannot cloak immediately upon being made. And sure, banshee is glass cannon, it's not like you cannot use storm on them. But it's atleast partially avoidable, unlike feedback.
No counter to raven? Stalkers can blink directly to them and shoot them down in seconds. Any protoss air can take them down pretty quickly (and is also fast enough to dodge the seeker missile). Storm does it's damage too.
Fair enough with overseers. What about corruptors? They couldn't just waste their energy, they need enemy building to do so.
I hope I worded it better this time.
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On March 16 2010 09:06 KhAlleB wrote:
i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ?
They are wrong, the actual range of Thor special ability is unfortunately pretty low.
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On March 16 2010 09:09 adelarge wrote:
I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground.
So, it doesn't work on Ravens then? Having feedback--a spell obviously designed to deal with enemy spellcasters--just flat-out not work on T's endgame spellcaster just plain doesn't make sense to me.
Same with the Mothership, though obviously that's not as relevant for TvP.
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EPT
