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On March 16 2010 09:09 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:23 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you. Going off of what I do understand: When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either. I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.- I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground. Stimming marines means I have to go bio pretty much every game if I want to use my only transport unit. Going mech -> medivacs full of energy -> one feedback = dead medivacs and everything in it. The cloak for banshee is pretty expensive upgrade, so no, they cannot cloak immediately upon being made. And sure, banshee is glass cannon, it's not like you cannot use storm on them. But it's atleast partially avoidable, unlike feedback. No counter to raven? Stalkers can blink directly to them and shoot them down in seconds. Any protoss air can take them down pretty quickly (and is also fast enough to dodge the seeker missile). Storm does it's damage too. Fair enough with overseers. What about corruptors? They couldn't just waste their energy, they need enemy building to do so. I hope I worded it better this time. edit: Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 09:06 KhAlleB wrote:
i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ? They are wrong, the actual range of Thor special ability is unfortunately pretty low.
Your idea of feedback not affecting Terran air isn't something I'm a big fan of, but I suppose it could be tried. However, that'd severely limit the targets of feedback to just ghosts and infestors (I suppose you can feedback Thors, but that's really pointless imo). The one thing I don't really like about SC2 is the super hard counter nature of practically every unit. This will only make HT feedback even more situational. But like I said, maybe it could be subject to balancing.
One big issue I have is that Protoss is really lacking in the AtA department. Sure, Stalkers can kill Raven pretty quickly. Or medivacs and such too. The problem is stalkers are simply not cost effective enough for them to warrant being built much less getting upgraded (most of the time).
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[quoteSo feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?][/quote]
The thing is, feedback is nearly useless, you rarely see HTs alone, they are with the toss army, and emp has a longer range then feedback, so its just better to emp the toss army/hts its effectively killing them, no energy, no shields, no attack.
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the problem is half of the terran unit are spellcaster
energie units: ghost, thor, medivac, raven, banshee, battlecruiser
without energie: marine, marauder, reaper, tank, hellion
and only the BC and the thor who isnt 1hit by feedback. I don't know if the FB should do half dmg but remove the all the energie or just reduce the quantity of energie remove
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On March 16 2010 09:09 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:23 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you. Going off of what I do understand: When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either. I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.- I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground. Stimming marines means I have to go bio pretty much every game if I want to use my only transport unit. Going mech -> medivacs full of energy -> one feedback = dead medivacs and everything in it. The cloak for banshee is pretty expensive upgrade, so no, they cannot cloak immediately upon being made. And sure, banshee is glass cannon, it's not like you cannot use storm on them. But it's atleast partially avoidable, unlike feedback. No counter to raven? Stalkers can blink directly to them and shoot them down in seconds. Any protoss air can take them down pretty quickly (and is also fast enough to dodge the seeker missile). Storm does it's damage too. Fair enough with overseers. What about corruptors? They couldn't just waste their energy, they need enemy building to do so. I hope I worded it better this time. edit: Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 09:06 KhAlleB wrote:
i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ? They are wrong, the actual range of Thor special ability is unfortunately pretty low.
You are saying that Raven can be countered by Stalkers with blink and in the same moment you say that researching Cloak for Banshee isn't cheap, it's cheaper for 50/50 as researching blink (Yeah you can get a 57% of a Stalker for it :D).In the next sentence you say they can get stormed, but storm needs to be researched as well (and it costs equal to Cloak). If you use cloak he need detector + if your Banshee's are low on energy so they won't die) + storming mobile units is not the best option. But that's not the point here. I just wanna show that it's hard for me to follow your arguments.
Actually i'm getting the feeling that you have a personal grudge against Feedback especially with the example of the Corruptor.
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Feedbacking thors isn't useless, it usually brings them to like half hp. Storm does like nothing to massive units so it's a good use of templar energy when you're trying to kill thors.
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i can validate what orb is saying, i played a tvp vs him and it was 3 base vs 3 base and i was m axed, he was not, i emp'd about 10 of his hts and thought i could handle him but he flanked me with about 10 more hts and totally completely destroyed me LOL =P
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anyway i do not think that this emp vs feedback thing is that big of a deal, i mean honestly if the toss has 4 hts in his army and i have 4 ghosts, i would much prefer that he uses 4 feedbacks instead of 4 storms on my MM =D also ghosts can cloak and sneak in for the emp before the battle
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On March 16 2010 04:40 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:34 Gigaudas wrote:
I thought sniper shots could be queued up using shift making enough to kill a HT pretty much instant?
I've never done it though so might be that I'm wrong. More apm that way though. Honestly though, I don't think ghosts are the way to fix terran late game. There is something inherently weak about late game terran army and buffing one ghost skill is not the way to fix it.
Anyone else notice how totally useless BCs have been? Bring back that bombardment ability, reduce cost on the yamato, and increase their fire rate and I think Terrans will be well equipped for a Tier-3 fight.
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How do you figure BCs are useless. BCs are crazy powerful
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On March 16 2010 10:03 -orb- wrote:
How do you figure BCs are useless. BCs are crazy powerful
I haven't seen them used effectively in any of my games* or in any of the good replays. Why is that?
*I am a lower league player who plays from a friends beta account, fwiw.
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BC's have the highest DPS in the game IIRC.
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Well, here's my suggestion for changing the sniper shot, and feedback to change the balance around a bit.
The terran's snipe ability could have a +45 damage applied to psionic targets (so 45 +45 psionic) and allow the damage of the ability be able to be reduced by armor (thus allowing upgraded infestors to prevent being 1 shotted)--cementing this ability as an anti-caster unit. It would do extra damage to queens, archons, HT, infestors, other ghosts. The energy cost of this ability may need to be increased (to 40 or so would be my suggestion).
For feedback--make it consume a maximum of 125 energy (thus capping its damage at 125) keeping medivacs, ravens ,and banshees alive (if only barely in the case of banshees ~5hp), but still maintaining its effectiveness--particularly in this matchup.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Reasons why this doesn't work? I'd like to hear any and all of these.
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Ryuu314:
Ground unit affected by feedback - ghost, thor, queen, infestor, sentry, HT...that's not so bad. And I agree, stalkers probably need a buff.
Dx Fx:
Hey, all the talk about how it's hard to follow my arguments but in the end you got it - I just hate feedback!  But seriously, I just hate how much hard counter is it to half of the Terran army (and some critical units of other races). Considering how storm hardcounter the second half (almost), the HT is currently just too good against terran. The corruptor is just another example of unit against which the HT is too good eventhough I believe it shouldn't.
-orb-:
About drops - I don't think protoss need any additional defense against terran drop than they have against zerg or protoss drop. Against warp-prism or overlords/nydus the feedback is useless and still protoss do just fine. Not to mention terran already have the worst mobility of all races.
About BCs:
Well, they looks nice on paper but that's all. I would really love to see them in normal games. I've seen them used only in FFA so far. But they are just too easily countered (by HTs for example  ).
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Somebody needs sc2armory and liquipedia II because the range for feedback is listed as 9 and the range for snipe is listed as 6, whereas they are completely the same (think they're both 9, but could be a little less?) I support bringing snipe up to 50 energy and 90 damage, because a cloaked ghost sniping six templar seems just slightly off.
also orb- did you ban me from the stream chat
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On March 16 2010 04:44 Irrelevant wrote:
The issue I see here with balancing the two is that ghost have the ability to attack normally, HTs do no, so even without energy a ghost can still add to an army, an HT without energy is worthless unless made into an archon which takes time and isn't that great either.
except ghosts don't do decent damage at all.
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On March 16 2010 05:44 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps Pro ass skills yo
so basically you win cause you are better than your opponent? how does this work against two people who are evenly matched?
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I think it's better to keep snipe low cost and low damage so that it allows for potential of some impressive play of ghost sniping a lot of targets.
What if snipe also have the ability to stun the target for about 5 seconds?
The reason for this is:
1) It solves the problem mentioned by orb. Whoever hits first will win.
2) It allows interesting play such as sniping a group of mutas to stop hit and run or stunning a group of hydras for MnM to kill. This would require quite a bit of micro, but would be pretty cool if people can pull it off.
If it turns out to be overpowered, then just stun for 1 or 2 seconds to solve orb's problems.
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Not sure if anyone mention this yet but wouldn't an easy fix for this to be a nerf to feedback. This nerf that I am thinking about it to change the High Templar Feedback ability to something similar to Mana Clash. The way this work is that High Templar loose 1 energy for every energy they burn off the opponent and still do 1 damage per energy burned this way.
Smart casting would work something similar to how unit decides how many shots are needed to kill a unit. If you select a group of High Templar to feedback another unit, one High Templar after another will expend all of his energy Till all of the opponent's unit energy is burned out also. This should make the meta game a bit more interesting for it will pretty much forced the Protoss into deciding between burning enemy's energy storming as the best use of the High Templar's energy.
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On March 16 2010 04:51 Nemesis wrote:
How bout with the buff of sniper shot make it cost more energy too to balance things out.
but wouldnt it need to have enough energy to emp or would that be to imba because no storm plus emp would be like auto win for terran its pretty delicate
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anyone know the exact range for emp and feedback?
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EPT
