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Let me start by saying I am a protoss player. I am near the top of my platinum division at around 1800 rating if I remember correctly. At its current state, I find myself in PvT doing everything I can to avoid harass/damage early game and trying to just make it to the late game as I have a very high win rate when I get to the late game in PvT without using a single colossus or immortal.
In its current state at a high level, PvT will always include ghost usage once the game transitions into the midgame. In the past I had a huge amount of trouble dealing with EMP as I'd have no energy or shields and my army would get decimated. The ability on its own still stands in my mind (if you let the terran get it off) as the single most overpowered ability in the game. It does not travel towards its opponent nor does it happen over time; it is instantaneous.
I am not here to complain about EMP, however. I always tech quickly to templars in PvT and while I am biased for my strategy I can confidently say that if the game stays the way it is (relatively speaking), at the top level many protosses will end up using this strategy to counter EMP.
What I do is I mass templar and speedlots (stalkers as well if my opponent gets hellions). I feedback everything in sight, most importantly the ghosts in the terran army, but also medivacs, banshees, thors, and ravens. I then proceed to blanket storm the entire enemy army.
The problem in the current balance that I forsee is that there is little the terran can do to avoid getting his ghosts feedbacked assuming the protoss has the mechanical skill to feedback them all (not an easy feat when they are mashed in with an MM ball). Feedback has a longer range than EMP, and when I tested it with a friend I found that even when you try to EMP in front of the templars to land the edge of the EMP on them before they can feedback the range is not enough. I am not, however, asking for a range buff on EMP. In my personal opinion this would make EMP uncounterable for protoss.
The problem here lies with the fact that the ghosts similar ability, the sniper shot, does not kill a templar in one shot. I have tested this and both sniper shot and feedback have the exact same range so that when they are told to do this to each other from range the templar will lose all of its shields and a small amount of health from the sniper shot and the ghost will be rendered energy-less from the feedback at the same time. In my opinion in order for this same-range skill shot to be well balanced at the highest levels of PvT they need to both be able to kill (or render each other useless even if the templar doesn't kill the ghost with feedback) each other in one use of the ability. This will essentially make it so that whoever uses their ability sooner (or if the opponent isn't paying attention and doesn't use it soon enough) will kill the opposing unit and gain the advantage through skill.
Currently, the only way to avoid getting ghosts feedbacked is by hiding them under Medivacs (which I would like a "fix" for but can't think of a way to fix... perhaps the protoss can zoom the camera in to change the angle and target them?). Maybe this is enough and the terran just needs to do this all the time and my idea for buffing sniper shot's damage is unneeded. This is why I've made this a discussion thread as opposed to a suggestion thread.
tl;dr: Feedback/Sniper Shot has the same range, yet feedback will remove all energy or kill the ghost in one cast while sniper shot takes 2 casts to kill a templar. My suggestion is to buff sniper shot's damage, but maybe this isn't needed and maybe this would mess up TvZ balance (although I have heard it is in zerg's favor anyways).
Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Edit: here is a replay relatively showing my strategy (although usually it is harder because usually terrans have more than one ghost and he only had one). Basically fast forward to a couple minutes before the end where he pushes and gets his army killed:
http://www.mediafire.com/?d4nzzmzzvqd
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I've been thinking of using Ghosts to snipe Obs and stay cloaked so they can't be hit with Feedback . . . probably too micro/gas-intensive, though. Anyway Sniper Shot is only 25 mana, how much does Feedback cost? Just curious.
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I thought sniper shots could be queued up using shift making enough to kill a HT pretty much instant?
I've never done it though so might be that I'm wrong.
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You cannot snipe observers sadly. Only allowed on biological targets.
However you can shift-queue a bunch of sniper shots on templar which kills them fast enough. It doesn't stop feedback from asploding your ghosts instantly though.
I guess my main beef with feedback is just how many terran units have energy! I tried some hellion drops vs orb the other day, and he just feedbacked the dropships and they asploded instantly. Quite disappointing.
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The sniper-shot vs feedback dynamic though doesn't have to be balanced ceteris paribus. If the Terran went for a push tanks bunkered marauders, against your tech all the ghosts would be needed for would be to EMP the onslaught before tanks blew your slowed zealots up. The ghost has tons of uses in the matchup other than neutralizing HT, having HT have a small advantage in Ghost killing is fair on paper to me.
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On March 16 2010 04:34 Gigaudas wrote:
I thought sniper shots could be queued up using shift making enough to kill a HT pretty much instant?
That should be possible, yes. I don't know how long it will take between shots
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On March 16 2010 04:34 Gigaudas wrote:
I thought sniper shots could be queued up using shift making enough to kill a HT pretty much instant?
I've never done it though so might be that I'm wrong.
More apm that way though.
Honestly though, I don't think ghosts are the way to fix terran late game. There is something inherently weak about late game terran army and buffing one ghost skill is not the way to fix it.
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On March 16 2010 04:39 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:34 Gigaudas wrote:
I thought sniper shots could be queued up using shift making enough to kill a HT pretty much instant? That should be possible, yes. I don't know how long it will take between shots
We tested this the other day and while it is fairly quick, it's not quick enough to get off two before the feedback neutralizes your ghost (since the feedback is going to be happening around the same time as your first sniper shot).
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Blizzard has talked too about looking into giving a small boost to mech for Terran so that may be where the balance is heading.
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Yeah that's what I would expect. I dunno why they made Sniper Shot not work vs. mechanical 
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On March 16 2010 04:40 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:34 Gigaudas wrote:
I thought sniper shots could be queued up using shift making enough to kill a HT pretty much instant?
I've never done it though so might be that I'm wrong. More apm that way though. Honestly though, I don't think ghosts are the way to fix terran late game. There is something inherently weak about late game terran army and buffing one ghost skill is not the way to fix it.
it's because MMM is "weak" vs storms and collosi. blizz said they are considering buffing mech (yes!!!) so let's see what we get with the next patch.
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imo (protoss player) sniper shot needs to be able to target any unit, and needs to be able to kill low health units like HTs instantaneously. This would bring about more snipe usage and be somewhat like mutas in BW zvp.
would be pretty boss
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The issue I see here with balancing the two is that ghost have the ability to attack normally, HTs do no, so even without energy a ghost can still add to an army, an HT without energy is worthless unless made into an archon which takes time and isn't that great either.
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if u make it to do 85dmg, it will have to take lot of mana, or have cd like too much... otherwise it will be too powerfull against like everythink
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On March 16 2010 04:42 theqat wrote:Yeah that's what I would expect. I dunno why they made Sniper Shot not work vs. mechanical
Well if you think about it try using a sniper rifle and shooting at a tank... I don't think you'll accomplish much. The ghost is using a sniper rifle for every attack but I think the purpose behind sniper shot is that (as stated in the tooltip the ghost take a careful shot) the ghost uses careful aim to hit a weak point (like headshotting someone) and do more damage. This kind of thing isn't likely to happen with mechanical units.
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On March 16 2010 04:44 Irrelevant wrote:
The issue I see here with balancing the two is that ghost have the ability to attack normally, HTs do no, so even without energy a ghost can still add to an army, an HT without energy is worthless unless made into an archon which takes time and isn't that great either.
This is true but I think we can all agree no one gets ghosts for their normal damage; they get them for their spells.
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On March 16 2010 04:45 uhlyk wrote:
if u make it to do 85dmg, it will have to take lot of mana, or have cd like too much... otherwise it will be too powerfull against like everythink
I think the idea would be to make it one-shot units under 90 HP or something. With other units it would deal its current damage.
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i agree with OP 100% he really knows what hes talking about
my personal angle i would go into to balance this would be to have the sentry switch his hallu in trade for the ht feedback which would lead to the ht having its good old hallu back which i think fits its character more. i dont think many ppl would disagree with me at this trade :p
then the second thing i would do is to make the hallu better in terms of its upgrade, its too expensive, nobody is making hallu :/
and for last i would give the snipe ability of the ghost a slight longer range and make the emp cost 100 instead of 75 and for compensation change the dmg to shield to 150 instead of 100
remember none of these things would strike tvz nor pvz as "more imba" because the ghost was already not used in tvz and the hallu wasnt used at all and ive never seen the feedback or spellcaster to be the main stream issue of pvz match up
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On March 16 2010 04:47 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:45 uhlyk wrote:
if u make it to do 85dmg, it will have to take lot of mana, or have cd like too much... otherwise it will be too powerfull against like everythink I think the idea would be to make it one-shot units under 90 HP or something. With other units it would deal its current damage.
The point though isn't "it would be cool if it did that," its that in its current state it's fairly decently balanced and Blizz has already stated they're looking at other avenues to balance the matchup
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How bout with the buff of sniper shot make it cost more energy too to balance things out.
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On March 16 2010 04:50 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:47 theqat wrote:On March 16 2010 04:45 uhlyk wrote:
if u make it to do 85dmg, it will have to take lot of mana, or have cd like too much... otherwise it will be too powerfull against like everythink I think the idea would be to make it one-shot units under 90 HP or something. With other units it would deal its current damage. The point though isn't "it would be cool if it did that," its that in its current state it's fairly decently balanced and Blizz has already stated they're looking at other avenues to balance the matchup
I know, I was talking to the guy who thought it would be too overpowered 
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On March 16 2010 04:51 Nemesis wrote:
How bout with the buff of sniper shot make it cost more energy too to balance things out.
Yes, this would be a fine change imo. If you made it cost the same amount of energy as feedback (50 energy, so you're doubling the energy cost) and doubled the damage I think you'd have a really good change.
I feel like once the games get to the uber-pro point like broodwar is today it would be really exciting to see players trying to feedback/snipe each other and see which player can get all the enemy units, or if during that distraction period see if one player makes the choice to try to get an EMP/storm off etc.
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So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?
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On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?
Right. I've been told by a lot of the top terrans I've played that I'm the first one they've seen do this, but it's so powerful if executed correctly (I think this is the reason so many tosses don't use it, they'd rather attack-move with mass colossi than have to feedback every ghost meshed in with the terran army) that I imagine more protosses will start using it soon.
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Instead of buffing the damage, how about just making it ignore shields or do double damage vs shields. Im not sure what the current damage is, but if a ht is 40/40 and your sniper shot does 60 damage. It will do 40 damage to the shield (20 of the 60 is double vs a shield) and the remaining 40 is done to the hp, killing a ht. If you made it ignore shields you might have to tweak the damage as it might be too strong vs zealots.
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Have any of you guys considered just increasing Snipe's range instead of damage output?
I particularly think it would be cooler and fit more with the ghost character.
What about allowing snipe to be used from inside bunkers and letting the skill as is, mana/damage/range wise?
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I dont think this is necessary. Firstly, ghosts can cloak so templar cant see them without an obs. Secondly an EMP, though it has less range, can easily disable several templar at once while a feedback can only disable 1 ghost. All the ghosts have to do is get 1 good EMP in to stop (most) psi storms and kill a bunch of shields. Thirdly, forcing templar to use feedback makes them have less energy for psi storm anyway. Finally, if templar and ghosts are both behind their main forces, neither should be able to reach with feedback or snipe. Instead they will just be focusing EMP and storms on the forces. This sort of evens out since storms do 80 damage and EMPs do 100 (but only to shields)
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On March 16 2010 04:59 julealgon wrote:
Have any of you guys considered just increasing Snipe's range instead of damage output?
I particularly think it would be cooler and fit more with the ghost character.
What about allowing snipe to be used from inside bunkers and letting the skill as is, mana/damage/range wise?
The problem is this would waaaay shift the game in favor of T in terms of the protoss even hoping to use templar to counter EMP. It would become literally impossible to ever feedback ghosts against a terran with good micro/multitasking. Either solution really would be very detrimental. Ghosts would always be able to kill templar before templar are in range with the range increase, and if they could snipe from within bunkers you simply would have no way of dealing with them at all.
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On March 16 2010 05:02 VX14 wrote:
I dont think this is necessary. Firstly, ghosts can cloak so templar cant see them without an obs. Secondly an EMP, though it has less range, can easily disable several templar at once while a feedback can only disable 1 ghost. All the ghosts have to do is get 1 good EMP in to stop (most) psi storms and kill a bunch of shields. Thirdly, forcing templar to use feedback makes them have less energy for psi storm anyway. Finally, if templar and ghosts are both behind their main forces, neither should be able to reach with feedback or snipe. Instead they will just be focusing EMP and storms on the forces. This sort of evens out since storms do 80 damage and EMPs do 100 (but only to shields)
These are all good points, although in my experience it seems both forces seem to like to keep their casters in front to not get stormed/EMP'd without having a chance to negate the opponent's casters before they can reach the main army.
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Do you have a replay of this? I mean if the terran self-scans or has a raven in his unit clump to kill nearby observers, he can just cloak when the armies almost collide and still get his EMPs off, no?
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On March 16 2010 05:09 wintergt wrote:
Do you have a replay of this? I mean if the terran self-scans or has a raven in his unit clump to kill nearby observers, he can just cloak when the armies almost collide and still get his EMPs off, no?
I posted a replay at the end of my OP. It's not the best example, as the terran only had one ghost. If you really want I can dig through my replay directory and try to find one of my PvTs in which the terran had like 4 ghosts and got them all feedbacked before being able to cast a single EMP.
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On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?
theres like 1 toss user who i played against out of all my games that seem to understand the imbalance
hes basically mass hts and cannons and getting a decent number of observers
hes expanding really quickly and spreading pylons effectivly. upgrading the +25 on hts really fast so as soon as i try attack an expo he warps in hts and storms the shit out of everything
once he gets a good econ going with about 3-4 bases he make like 5 colosus and finishes the game
im talking about ZeeRax, man that guy is really smart in the PvT match up. probably the only toss user who i have negative stats against, im like 2-7 against him
dont come here and tell me to make banshees btw because his observers scout everything, trust me he got money to counter w/e i do :p
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im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps
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On March 16 2010 04:25 -orb- wrote:
Let me start by saying I am a protoss player. I am near the top of my platinum division at around 1800 rating if I remember correctly. At its current state, I find myself in PvT doing everything I can to avoid harass/damage early game and trying to just make it to the late game as I have a very high win rate when I get to the late game in PvT without using a single colossus or immortal.
What exactly do you do to avoid harass/damage early game? You won't get psi storm in time for the fast 1-ghost EMP push, and you have no colossus backbone to rely upon to do your splash damage. Are you teching to psi storm after your first colossus?
On March 16 2010 04:57 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet? Right. I've been told by a lot of the top terrans I've played that I'm the first one they've seen do this, but it's so powerful if executed correctly (I think this is the reason so many tosses don't use it, they'd rather attack-move with mass colossi than have to feedback every ghost meshed in with the terran army) that I imagine more protosses will start using it soon.
I don't think going straight templar without any colossi will ever become popular in mainstream PvT, unless major gameplay/stat changes are made. Colossi are reliable and mis-micro-ing them for a split second won't cost you the battle - you can't say the same bout HT because of how vulnerable they are - I could see Terran players sac'ing ghosts at various points before the "big battle" just to EMP your army.
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On March 16 2010 05:13 -orb- wrote:
If you really want I can dig through my replay directory and try to find one of my PvTs in which the terran had like 4 ghosts and got them all feedbacked before being able to cast a single EMP.
Yes, please do.
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Can't you terrans just use Siege tanks to keep templars away from ghosts.
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keep the ghost inside medivac if you dont want them to get picked out with feedback.The problem lies here in the fact that a terran never builds more than 1-2 ghosts because those are enough to get the job done completely.But you see protoss with 5-6 Templars or even more.So even if they can kill the Templars with 1 shot with their current play they will still fail.But making it double the cost double the dmg doesnt seem wrong.
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On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps
Pro ass skills yo
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On March 16 2010 05:19 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:25 -orb- wrote:
Let me start by saying I am a protoss player. I am near the top of my platinum division at around 1800 rating if I remember correctly. At its current state, I find myself in PvT doing everything I can to avoid harass/damage early game and trying to just make it to the late game as I have a very high win rate when I get to the late game in PvT without using a single colossus or immortal.
What exactly do you do to avoid harass/damage early game? You won't get psi storm in time for the fast 1-ghost EMP push, and you have no colossus backbone to rely upon to do your splash damage. Are you teching to psi storm after your first colossus?
I've personally never done orb's build before, but I'm guessing that the build will still open robo first for the observer. You should be able to get the observer out in time to scout out any possible early harass. In the case that the Terran will do a marauder push before you can get storm tech out on the field in time you can always chrono boost 1 or 2 immortals to hold off the push.
I think the general idea is to use obs to scout and allow you to counter early harass/push effectively without over-investing in immortals or colossi too early, and instead get HT with storm/feedback out asap.
anyone who has more experience with this build please correct me if i'm wrong.
EDIT: also, you should be able to get at least 1 HT out in time for the 1 ghost EMP push. If you're on high ground (which you should be as you're somewhat playing defensively) coupled with the superior range of feedback v. EMP, you should be able to feedback the single ghost before it gets in range of ur immortals and such. of course, if they hide their ghost in a medivac or something it'll be more problematic.
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I do think snipe should be buffed as it is barely useful at all atm. I have never used it or seen it used in any game. I have theorycrafted some interesting plays with it but ultimately it's extremely situational, and even then marginally better than many alternatives. It should have a longer range and/or a debuff of some type such as silence (seems redundant), snare (marauders do this), stun, or an armor debuff (rp could be explained that the ghost exposes a weakness in the enemy). The problem with the ability is that it is only good vs templar but EMP is much stronger against them, with the exception of this mechanic that you have brought to our attention. A simple range increase would seem to be the solution. Do we want the range to be enough that a ghost can kill the templar before he feedbacks, or so that the 2nd ghost shot (assuming shift-qued) lands simoultaneously with feedback? It would seem the latter is more balanced as the ghost can (maybe) run away and fight in another battle while the Templar is now dead.
Another solution is to allow the ghost to EMP from inside a bunker (possibly even increase its range when fired from a bunker) but remain immune to feedback while inside. This would start to shift the matchup back towards how it was in broodwar where the terran needs to slowly push up to the protoss. Before it was with mines and turrets, now with leapfrogging bunkers and using salvage.
A third solution which is more involved would be to turn snipe into an alternate Prone mode for the ghost. A problem is that the ghost now has 2 different forms to toggle which can be used simoultaneously along with a castable ability meaning the unit needs 5 hotkeys to control. Anyway, prone would make the ghost move more slowly but increase its range, increase the bonus damage it does (only vs light or overall) dramatically, and reduce its firing speed. Again, moving the mechanic more towards BW's big militaristic pushes for territory as the Terran slowly creeps forward toward the Protoss. Also this would give the ghost an alternative use besides killing Templars. They could be dropped on cliffs to harass workers with a ~10 range shot. The latter goal can also be accomplished with the +range on snipe when inside a bunker.
Cloak should seemingly protect the ghost from feedback though I am unsure exactly what the detection range of an observer is. Does anyone have data on this?
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I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game.
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Russian Federation85 Posts
So as far i understood it, Orb describes a static situation in PvT of the unawareness of the T vs HT's, so they are in the disadvantage because they are overwhelmed by it.
If you look it the simple way:
P has an unit which is pretty useful vs T's mass casters.(without upgrades)
T has an unit which is useful vs all P units.(without upgrades)
If you ask me that looks more or less pretty equal. Give people the chance to get used to the situation and let the dynamic decide if it's imbalanced or just a currently uncommon situation. You say that just a few Toss are going for HT's, this means that T has no reason to practice / adjust against them because it's so rare that it doesn't matter currently. So there is absolute no reason for rising the balance flag.
Edit: I wonder myself why people rise the balance flag before even the problem is clear. Even if you(Orb) say that currently the player prefers to send their casters at the front, there's no reason to adjust the game to the style of the players.
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good point about air units, they do seem to also have trouble with this ability and I'm not sure it's good balance for them to always have to be around a ghost to be able to cast. And even then, that's assuming that the feedback vs snipe mechanic is changed as many of the people in this thread are suggesting.
Perhaps the solution is to make feedback a temporary silence instead of having the damage component? The duration of the silence could depend on the energy of the caster so a full energy caster ready to unload would take a couple of seconds while a ghost with just enough to emp would only have his cast delayed slightly. Or feedback could be a dot that drains mana instead of doing its effect insantly. In effect forcing the unit to cast ASAP (to empty its mana pool) even if it's not the ideal time.
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Nice rep orb, but how do you alter your strat if they go banshees or go full air banshee/viking combo?
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On March 16 2010 05:19 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:25 -orb- wrote:
Let me start by saying I am a protoss player. I am near the top of my platinum division at around 1800 rating if I remember correctly. At its current state, I find myself in PvT doing everything I can to avoid harass/damage early game and trying to just make it to the late game as I have a very high win rate when I get to the late game in PvT without using a single colossus or immortal.
What exactly do you do to avoid harass/damage early game? You won't get psi storm in time for the fast 1-ghost EMP push, and you have no colossus backbone to rely upon to do your splash damage. Are you teching to psi storm after your first colossus?
I don't get a first colossus. I don't get an early robo which is what helps me hold off the push. Sure, I don't ahve obs, but I use probes/pylons/xel'naga sight things to scout. I usually can get my first templar out (without storm finished yet tho) around the time the early ghost push comes, and I generally just feedback the ghost (since they'll for sure only have one ghost at that point) and force field my ramp/choke to delay until I have a sizable-enough army to engage. Usually the terran is teching pretty hard to get that early ghost and their army isn't TOO large so if you successfully prevent the EMP you should be able to take the army especially if you give it another warp-gate cooldown or two through blocking with force fields.
While warp is researching I usually get two stalkers asap to prevent against early reapers (almost every good terran likes to get one early reaper to try to harass probes if protoss was greedy and didn't get an early stalker) or early hellions.
Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:57 -orb- wrote:On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet? Right. I've been told by a lot of the top terrans I've played that I'm the first one they've seen do this, but it's so powerful if executed correctly (I think this is the reason so many tosses don't use it, they'd rather attack-move with mass colossi than have to feedback every ghost meshed in with the terran army) that I imagine more protosses will start using it soon. I don't think going straight templar without any colossi will ever become popular in mainstream PvT, unless major gameplay/stat changes are made. Colossi are reliable and mis-micro-ing them for a split second won't cost you the battle - you can't say the same bout HT because of how vulnerable they are - I could see Terran players sac'ing ghosts at various points before the "big battle" just to EMP your army.
Well see this is where the balance is tricky. In my personal opinion the templar build has more potential than the colossus build, but due to the difficulty of microing it a lot of protosses will surely shy away from it (kind of like doing corsair reaver in pvz broodwar... it could be very powerful but if you mis-micro'd (meaning the toss) you basically auto-lost
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game.
Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P.
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On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P.
EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide).
The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.
Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc...
EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away.
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On March 16 2010 05:59 Whiplash wrote:
Nice rep orb, but how do you alter your strat if they go banshees or go full air banshee/viking combo?
I basically don't have to alter at all except that I get obs a bit earlier (well same robo timing prolly but start building obs earlier) and get some more stalkers to support/kill off the banshees because feedback will just rape the hell out of banshees.
Same thing if they go for dropship play. It's all about your map awareness. If you put obs around the map and utilize the sight statue things and watch for incoming dropships you can almost always fully prevent them by feedbacking the dropshop before it has a chance to drop units off.
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On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away.
Sure it does, you're just not thinking about the other side of it. When a terran goes for ghosts (which almost all do) you have to make a choice between trying to outmicro him with templar or just being like "well I guess i can't take any caster units because they will be EMP'd and I should take units that have high hp and low shields." it's the same thing as you not wanting to have medivacs or ravens or at least having htem have high energy because they can be feedbacked.
Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac?
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On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away.
I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you.
Going off of what I do understand:
When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either.
I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.-
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If the HTs are in front of P's army, they are most dangerous but also very vulnerable to whatever units you might have. If they are not in front though, EMP the units that are in front before you get feedbacked and then snipe the HTs, since you can get 1 sniper round off per Ghost before you are hit. You can't get killed by Feedback if you have very little energy. The Ghost will regen 25 energy and be usable for another snipe very quickly if he is alive.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Snipe oughtta bypass shields, that'd be cool. It'd one-shot templar, but leave zealots with less HP but their shield intact. something like that.
I completely agree with orb though, and have found templar openings to be a shitload more effective than collosus openings
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sniper shot has been useless increase the freaking damage to like 50
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On March 16 2010 05:44 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps Pro ass skills yo
Well from watching a few reps of you.... you're pretty far from that -.-
No offense intended, just sayin
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Valhalla18444 Posts
yeah, feel free to keep your opinions on the skill of other players to yourself, fayth
r4j2ill, snipe damage is 45 lol
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meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
I think the sniper shot bypassing shield is somewhat a neat idea btw, but I just think Orb is kind of wrong considering his skill level from the replays I've watched, I mean you usually balance the game according to top players don't you? I really don't think feedback is that OP and that we can't do anything against it, if anything I think it evens out TvP
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On March 16 2010 06:23 -orb- wrote:
Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac?
Because a dead medivac doesn't have units inside it anymore, orb.
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You are assuming the terran wont scout your HT tech, and will rush ghosts... Do you still get robo?
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On March 16 2010 06:55 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:44 -orb- wrote:On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps Pro ass skills yo Well from watching a few reps of you.... you're pretty far from that -.- No offense intended, just sayin
Well considering, unlike in sc:bw, you can just tab to your HTs and shift-queue feedback on the ghosts if you have vision, then the superior AI will take over and sort out all the proximity and energy issues for you automatically and feedback outranges EMP..
Btw I have agree with a previous post that it is suddenly feeling very retarded that blizz decided to slap some low use abilities and for that reason energy on some units (thors, overseers etc) so now HTs can feedback them.. and medivacs, they'll die to one feedback but you can't really avoid getting feedback'ed (in a stand-off) unless you wound your own units so they can blow their energy, or EMP them which makes them useless..
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If you have 3+ ghosts and you don't clump them it's pretty hard for the p to feedback every single one. And you really only need 2 emps to get almost every P unit, one ghost can easily get off both those emps too if it's like the typical TvPs I've been experiencing so far.
Can't say I've ever used the snipe ability in a serious game. I guess it could be decent for worker harass maybe? I mean it's easier to just emp the hts than snipe them currently. It would be nice if ghosts had longer range like they did in sc1 though.
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seriously from watching his reps, I have like 5 ghosts by the time he has his templars out, unless you use some super fast templar build (which is then pretty much owned by cloaked banshees) it's almost impossible to feedback EVERY ghost without 1 EMP going off
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On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
I think the sniper shot bypassing shield is somewhat a neat idea btw, but I just think Orb is kind of wrong considering his skill level from the replays I've watched, I mean you usually balance the game according to top players don't you? I really don't think feedback is that OP and that we can't do anything against it, if anything I think it evens out TvP
Why do you feel the need to slander me without reason?
I dominated #1 in my platinum 1v1 division the entire first week of beta until I fell behind due to going home for spring break and now I've consistently been top 6 ever since.
What do you expect me to say when you so condescendingly say "im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps" when it's obvious that I've been doing it in my games. You act as if you don't believe me when I've done it live on stream with hundreds of people watching me emp 4+ ghosts before they're able to get off an EMP on my army.
I don't get what your beef is with TL moderating, they do an excellent job and largely thanks to them tl.net is one of the cleanest forums out there.
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I recall you saying "all you annoying noobs bla bla bla" when you're in fact not as good as you claim to be, I mean the terran who couldnt emp you prob forgot about emping until he realized u had feedbacked em, if terran EMP asap while you click feedback it's impossible that you feedback em all, how can you feedback 6 ghosts in 0.5 second?
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On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
maybe its because orb streams his games for the entertainment of anyone who wants to watch.
maybe its because orb is a veteran poster on tl, and makes good posts.
maybe its because he actually brings up valid points, plays against very high skill players and beats them with this.
or maybe because you do none of the above?
seriously cant see why you'd attack his skill level when he has a pretty damn good elo
On March 16 2010 07:55 Fayth wrote:
I recall you saying "all you annoying noobs bla bla bla" when you're in fact not as good as you claim to be, I mean the terran who couldnt emp you prob forgot about emping until he realized u had feedbacked em, if terran EMP asap while you click feedback it's impossible that you feedback em all, how can you feedback 6 ghosts in 0.5 second?
maintain vision with obs, shift queue feedback? not TOO difficult
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On March 16 2010 08:00 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
maybe its because orb streams his games for the entertainment of anyone who wants to watch. maybe its because orb is a veteran poster on tl, and makes good posts. maybe its because he actually brings up valid points, plays against very high skill players and beats them with this. or maybe because you do none of the above? seriously cant see why you'd attack his skill level when he has a pretty damn good elo
what, I beat better players than he does wtf, why would I say that otherwise, I've also been posting here for way longer than he did, I was just inactive for a while (when I quit bw basically)
I can stream if you want.... I don't really know how though
anything else you wanna know?
All I wanna say is people shudn't jump on the idea saying "yes you're right, nerf P again or buff T so we can easily take care of templars now" when it isn't really that imbalanced at all
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well it has nothing to do with imbalance then, terran just musn't make the mistake of letting an obs follow him all around the map on top of his units....
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if snipe bypassed plasma shields that would be pretty fun
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On March 16 2010 08:03 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 08:00 TheAntZ wrote:On March 16 2010 07:17 Fayth wrote:
meh he's allowed to have opinion on the skill of other players but I don't, whatever standard TL moding
maybe its because orb streams his games for the entertainment of anyone who wants to watch. maybe its because orb is a veteran poster on tl, and makes good posts. maybe its because he actually brings up valid points, plays against very high skill players and beats them with this. or maybe because you do none of the above? seriously cant see why you'd attack his skill level when he has a pretty damn good elo what, I beat better players than he does wtf, why would I say that otherwise, I've also been posting here for way longer than he did, I was just inactive for a while (when I quit bw basically) I can stream if you want.... I don't really know how though anything else you wanna know? All I wanna say is people shudn't jump on the idea saying "yes you're right, nerf P again or buff T so we can easily take care of templars now" when it isn't really that imbalanced at all
pics and reps or it didnt happen
also, adding snipe as an option just makes the game more fun, and I dont see how it brings about an imbalance
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If you had actually ever read my post you'd know I didn't say TvP is imbalanced because of this, I said I'm forseeing a possible imbalance once the game gets up to the highest level.
You're so disrespectful and condescending, it's really insulting.
It's like you have some personal vendetta against me for some reason I still fail to recognize
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Once the game gets up to the highest level I would like to assume the terran will scout the HT tech and will not go ghosts w/o cloak... Do you still get robo before HT?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
it's not a personal vendetta, he's just a self-entitled ass who thinks he can talk shit about whoever he wants and people will respect it because he used to dt drop Veg back in the day
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On March 16 2010 06:23 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. Sure it does, you're just not thinking about the other side of it. When a terran goes for ghosts (which almost all do) you have to make a choice between trying to outmicro him with templar or just being like "well I guess i can't take any caster units because they will be EMP'd and I should take units that have high hp and low shields." it's the same thing as you not wanting to have medivacs or ravens or at least having htem have high energy because they can be feedbacked. Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac?
I understand that, but I still feel that feedback restrict terran player more that EMP protoss. Sure I can be biased I admit that. I'm also all for nerfing EMP if it really restrict protoss players too much.
About medivacs - I was specifically speaking about drops. How am I supposed to drop a protoss who has decent map awareness and HT ready? The storm is already pain in the ass and the fact that my medivacs has their health halved by feedback before they can even unload something makes it almost impossible.
You really don't see any problems with the fact that almost every Terran air unit is very vulnerable to feedback? Templar's still have storm, so they own mass of low health units aswell. Basically aside tanks, hellions and vikings there isn't a terran unit which is not hard countered by HT.
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Why can't T just cloak his ghost, scan his own army to kill obs, then engage? If you do that, pretty much the entirety of templar tech becomes useless and you win right there.
Alternatively, why can't he EMP a medivac, put the ghost in there and drop it to emp when needed?
I really don't see how this is broken, or could be come broken.
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In regard to Medic&Marine vs. High Templars, think about it. HT is arguably a hard counter to M&M (I'd say it's more a rigid counter. The outcome will depend on the speed and actions of the two armies moreso than on the specifics of the units) but this can happen in one of two ways, both of which end up in negating the Medivacs.
Either A) You snipe all the Medivacs with Feedback and they die, leaving a bunch of Marines without heals which are reasonably effective, depending on their upgrade level. Without heals, your ground forces are more effectively matched against them.
Or B) You storm the M&M and it all takes heavy damage, the Medivacs run out of energy, and your ground forces are therefore more effectively matched against them.
Sometimes when you're lucky, C) You feedback the Medivacs with the Marines inside, macro counter with chargelots and other forces and maintain your advantage, good game, everyone can go back to Aiur and ride rainbow ponies in the sunshine.
When Ghosts are involved though you, as Protoss, don't know where the emp could come from. T should be keeping the ghosts hidden, on a separate hotkey, perhaps in a flanking position where an observer doesn't just get to go doopty doo i'm rightclicked on you. One scan and a Ghost can shoot down an observer... DO EET. Smart ghosts are going to Rape (with a capital R) High Templars and just about anything else Protoss has unless he counters appropriately but if your Temps all get shot in the brains by shiftclicking ghosts hiding in the bushes like VC in the trees then you're going to lose! The key thing in both cases, is that HT and Ghosts counter each other, and the skill and scouting\vision intel of the players is what determines which is going to happen. Nobody says Ghosts have to be milling about in your bio ball waiting to get hit with AE spells or brain-exploded by feedback... :|
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On March 16 2010 08:53 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:23 -orb- wrote:On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. Sure it does, you're just not thinking about the other side of it. When a terran goes for ghosts (which almost all do) you have to make a choice between trying to outmicro him with templar or just being like "well I guess i can't take any caster units because they will be EMP'd and I should take units that have high hp and low shields." it's the same thing as you not wanting to have medivacs or ravens or at least having htem have high energy because they can be feedbacked. Besides, even if you could EMP your own medivacs you wouldn't want to because why is an out-of-energy medivac any better than a dead medivac? I understand that, but I still feel that feedback restrict terran player more that EMP protoss. Sure I can be biased I admit that. I'm also all for nerfing EMP if it really restrict protoss players too much. About medivacs - I was specifically speaking about drops. How am I supposed to drop a protoss who has decent map awareness and HT ready? The storm is already pain in the ass and the fact that my medivacs has their health halved by feedback before they can even unload something makes it almost impossible. You really don't see any problems with the fact that almost every Terran air unit is very vulnerable to feedback? Templar's still have storm, so they own mass of low health units aswell. Basically aside tanks, hellions and vikings there isn't a terran unit which is not hard countered by HT.
This is why I feel you should be able to snipe HTs.
As for drops... a terran can protect their base from being dropped (or even scouted by obs) with turrets which are much more cost effective than a protoss putting cannons everywhere. Why should a terran be able to protect himself but not a protoss?
Besides which, if the person has map awareness and puts units in place before your dropship gets there then it doesn't matter if the units are stalkers or a high templar, either way if you just let the dropship come into range with them shooting the wohle time it will die.
Also, a medivac will only die if it's either full hp or very close (don't know the actual amount). I've feedbacked medivacs coming for drops tons of times without them dying.
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i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ?
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On March 16 2010 06:23 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you. Going off of what I do understand: When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either. I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.-
I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground.
Stimming marines means I have to go bio pretty much every game if I want to use my only transport unit. Going mech -> medivacs full of energy -> one feedback = dead medivacs and everything in it.
The cloak for banshee is pretty expensive upgrade, so no, they cannot cloak immediately upon being made. And sure, banshee is glass cannon, it's not like you cannot use storm on them. But it's atleast partially avoidable, unlike feedback.
No counter to raven? Stalkers can blink directly to them and shoot them down in seconds. Any protoss air can take them down pretty quickly (and is also fast enough to dodge the seeker missile). Storm does it's damage too.
Fair enough with overseers. What about corruptors? They couldn't just waste their energy, they need enemy building to do so.
I hope I worded it better this time.
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On March 16 2010 09:06 KhAlleB wrote:
i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ?
They are wrong, the actual range of Thor special ability is unfortunately pretty low.
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On March 16 2010 09:09 adelarge wrote:
I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground.
So, it doesn't work on Ravens then? Having feedback--a spell obviously designed to deal with enemy spellcasters--just flat-out not work on T's endgame spellcaster just plain doesn't make sense to me.
Same with the Mothership, though obviously that's not as relevant for TvP.
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On March 16 2010 09:09 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:23 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you. Going off of what I do understand: When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either. I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.- I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground. Stimming marines means I have to go bio pretty much every game if I want to use my only transport unit. Going mech -> medivacs full of energy -> one feedback = dead medivacs and everything in it. The cloak for banshee is pretty expensive upgrade, so no, they cannot cloak immediately upon being made. And sure, banshee is glass cannon, it's not like you cannot use storm on them. But it's atleast partially avoidable, unlike feedback. No counter to raven? Stalkers can blink directly to them and shoot them down in seconds. Any protoss air can take them down pretty quickly (and is also fast enough to dodge the seeker missile). Storm does it's damage too. Fair enough with overseers. What about corruptors? They couldn't just waste their energy, they need enemy building to do so. I hope I worded it better this time. edit: Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 09:06 KhAlleB wrote:
i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ? They are wrong, the actual range of Thor special ability is unfortunately pretty low.
Your idea of feedback not affecting Terran air isn't something I'm a big fan of, but I suppose it could be tried. However, that'd severely limit the targets of feedback to just ghosts and infestors (I suppose you can feedback Thors, but that's really pointless imo). The one thing I don't really like about SC2 is the super hard counter nature of practically every unit. This will only make HT feedback even more situational. But like I said, maybe it could be subject to balancing.
One big issue I have is that Protoss is really lacking in the AtA department. Sure, Stalkers can kill Raven pretty quickly. Or medivacs and such too. The problem is stalkers are simply not cost effective enough for them to warrant being built much less getting upgraded (most of the time).
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[quoteSo feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?][/quote]
The thing is, feedback is nearly useless, you rarely see HTs alone, they are with the toss army, and emp has a longer range then feedback, so its just better to emp the toss army/hts its effectively killing them, no energy, no shields, no attack.
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the problem is half of the terran unit are spellcaster
energie units: ghost, thor, medivac, raven, banshee, battlecruiser
without energie: marine, marauder, reaper, tank, hellion
and only the BC and the thor who isnt 1hit by feedback. I don't know if the FB should do half dmg but remove the all the energie or just reduce the quantity of energie remove
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On March 16 2010 09:09 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:23 Ryuu314 wrote:On March 16 2010 06:15 adelarge wrote:On March 16 2010 06:02 Dx Fx wrote:On March 16 2010 05:51 adelarge wrote:
I was telling it since feedback was introduced, that spell is so fucking op. Not op in the sense that the matchup cannot be balanced, but it limits almost every option terran players have.
It would be really nice if terran players could use medivacs, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers, thors and ghost against competent protoss players who happen to know how to use HTs correctly. But nooo, just few clicks and not only you can't use your specials ability, you have also bunch of dead/half dead unit instead.
Seriously, special abilities should benefit you, not your opponent...
At least make it work only on ground units, like infestor parasite. It would still be effective counter to EMP or infestors but it wouldn't fuck up every terran flying unit (vikings aside, but it's not like they can do anything against protoss ground forces).
Also thanks to feedback we probably never see mothership in PvP. And the fact that the only zerg mobile detector has energy doesn't help either. Feedback has to change, it extremely limits strategic options in the game. Sorry, but you didn't even said one point which does not apply to EMP vs P. EMP doesn't distinguish between (protoss) units. EMP do fair and square 100 damage to shields and drains all energy (also note that I've never said EMP is perfectly balanced, but I don't play PvT, so it's not up to me to decide). The man point is EMP doesn't limit your strategic options.Am I really supposed to EMPed my own medivacs if I want to drop a protoss player? Am I supposed to create changelings just to waste my overseers energy so the HT's don't shot down my only mobile detection? Etc... EMP doesn't turn your supposed advantage against you, it just take it away. I'm sorry, but your wording makes it really really hard to understand you. Going off of what I do understand: When you're going off against Protoss the ideal situation is that your medivacs will never get feedbacked. If you EMP correctly, or if snipe is changed and you snipe all the HT correctly and in time, then there should be no problem. EMP is essentially the solution to Protoss. Giving HT a direct counter to it is very balanced. Also, if you're stimming properly your medivacs will probably never be at full energy anyways. Banshees can cloak immediately upon being made so having full energy shouldnt' be much of an issue for them. In addition, Banshees are supposed to be glass cannons and easy to destroy. Furthermore, if feedback can't target Ravens, then Protoss will have no real counter to them either. I would also argue that yes, you're supposed to spam changelings to "waste your overseer's energy" because doing so means you're constantly scouting with free, expendable units. It's not like you have any other reason to save up energy on your overseers anyways. -.- I'm all for ghost being countered by HT. But I specifically hate like couple of HTs can completely fuck up with all terran air. That's why I suggested feeback affecting only ground. Stimming marines means I have to go bio pretty much every game if I want to use my only transport unit. Going mech -> medivacs full of energy -> one feedback = dead medivacs and everything in it. The cloak for banshee is pretty expensive upgrade, so no, they cannot cloak immediately upon being made. And sure, banshee is glass cannon, it's not like you cannot use storm on them. But it's atleast partially avoidable, unlike feedback. No counter to raven? Stalkers can blink directly to them and shoot them down in seconds. Any protoss air can take them down pretty quickly (and is also fast enough to dodge the seeker missile). Storm does it's damage too. Fair enough with overseers. What about corruptors? They couldn't just waste their energy, they need enemy building to do so. I hope I worded it better this time. edit: Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 09:06 KhAlleB wrote:
i dont have the beta buy i take a look to sc2armory and i find that the thor's abilitie have more range than FB so can it be viable to stun to death the HT ? They are wrong, the actual range of Thor special ability is unfortunately pretty low.
You are saying that Raven can be countered by Stalkers with blink and in the same moment you say that researching Cloak for Banshee isn't cheap, it's cheaper for 50/50 as researching blink (Yeah you can get a 57% of a Stalker for it :D).In the next sentence you say they can get stormed, but storm needs to be researched as well (and it costs equal to Cloak). If you use cloak he need detector + if your Banshee's are low on energy so they won't die) + storming mobile units is not the best option. But that's not the point here. I just wanna show that it's hard for me to follow your arguments.
Actually i'm getting the feeling that you have a personal grudge against Feedback especially with the example of the Corruptor.
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Feedbacking thors isn't useless, it usually brings them to like half hp. Storm does like nothing to massive units so it's a good use of templar energy when you're trying to kill thors.
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i can validate what orb is saying, i played a tvp vs him and it was 3 base vs 3 base and i was m axed, he was not, i emp'd about 10 of his hts and thought i could handle him but he flanked me with about 10 more hts and totally completely destroyed me LOL =P
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anyway i do not think that this emp vs feedback thing is that big of a deal, i mean honestly if the toss has 4 hts in his army and i have 4 ghosts, i would much prefer that he uses 4 feedbacks instead of 4 storms on my MM =D also ghosts can cloak and sneak in for the emp before the battle
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On March 16 2010 04:40 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:34 Gigaudas wrote:
I thought sniper shots could be queued up using shift making enough to kill a HT pretty much instant?
I've never done it though so might be that I'm wrong. More apm that way though. Honestly though, I don't think ghosts are the way to fix terran late game. There is something inherently weak about late game terran army and buffing one ghost skill is not the way to fix it.
Anyone else notice how totally useless BCs have been? Bring back that bombardment ability, reduce cost on the yamato, and increase their fire rate and I think Terrans will be well equipped for a Tier-3 fight.
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How do you figure BCs are useless. BCs are crazy powerful
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On March 16 2010 10:03 -orb- wrote:
How do you figure BCs are useless. BCs are crazy powerful
I haven't seen them used effectively in any of my games* or in any of the good replays. Why is that?
*I am a lower league player who plays from a friends beta account, fwiw.
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BC's have the highest DPS in the game IIRC.
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Well, here's my suggestion for changing the sniper shot, and feedback to change the balance around a bit.
The terran's snipe ability could have a +45 damage applied to psionic targets (so 45 +45 psionic) and allow the damage of the ability be able to be reduced by armor (thus allowing upgraded infestors to prevent being 1 shotted)--cementing this ability as an anti-caster unit. It would do extra damage to queens, archons, HT, infestors, other ghosts. The energy cost of this ability may need to be increased (to 40 or so would be my suggestion).
For feedback--make it consume a maximum of 125 energy (thus capping its damage at 125) keeping medivacs, ravens ,and banshees alive (if only barely in the case of banshees ~5hp), but still maintaining its effectiveness--particularly in this matchup.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Reasons why this doesn't work? I'd like to hear any and all of these.
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Ryuu314:
Ground unit affected by feedback - ghost, thor, queen, infestor, sentry, HT...that's not so bad. And I agree, stalkers probably need a buff.
Dx Fx:
Hey, all the talk about how it's hard to follow my arguments but in the end you got it - I just hate feedback! But seriously, I just hate how much hard counter is it to half of the Terran army (and some critical units of other races). Considering how storm hardcounter the second half (almost), the HT is currently just too good against terran. The corruptor is just another example of unit against which the HT is too good eventhough I believe it shouldn't.
-orb-:
About drops - I don't think protoss need any additional defense against terran drop than they have against zerg or protoss drop. Against warp-prism or overlords/nydus the feedback is useless and still protoss do just fine. Not to mention terran already have the worst mobility of all races.
About BCs:
Well, they looks nice on paper but that's all. I would really love to see them in normal games. I've seen them used only in FFA so far. But they are just too easily countered (by HTs for example  ).
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Somebody needs sc2armory and liquipedia II because the range for feedback is listed as 9 and the range for snipe is listed as 6, whereas they are completely the same (think they're both 9, but could be a little less?) I support bringing snipe up to 50 energy and 90 damage, because a cloaked ghost sniping six templar seems just slightly off.
also orb- did you ban me from the stream chat
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On March 16 2010 04:44 Irrelevant wrote:
The issue I see here with balancing the two is that ghost have the ability to attack normally, HTs do no, so even without energy a ghost can still add to an army, an HT without energy is worthless unless made into an archon which takes time and isn't that great either.
except ghosts don't do decent damage at all.
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On March 16 2010 05:44 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps Pro ass skills yo
so basically you win cause you are better than your opponent? how does this work against two people who are evenly matched?
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I think it's better to keep snipe low cost and low damage so that it allows for potential of some impressive play of ghost sniping a lot of targets.
What if snipe also have the ability to stun the target for about 5 seconds?
The reason for this is:
1) It solves the problem mentioned by orb. Whoever hits first will win.
2) It allows interesting play such as sniping a group of mutas to stop hit and run or stunning a group of hydras for MnM to kill. This would require quite a bit of micro, but would be pretty cool if people can pull it off.
If it turns out to be overpowered, then just stun for 1 or 2 seconds to solve orb's problems.
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Not sure if anyone mention this yet but wouldn't an easy fix for this to be a nerf to feedback. This nerf that I am thinking about it to change the High Templar Feedback ability to something similar to Mana Clash. The way this work is that High Templar loose 1 energy for every energy they burn off the opponent and still do 1 damage per energy burned this way.
Smart casting would work something similar to how unit decides how many shots are needed to kill a unit. If you select a group of High Templar to feedback another unit, one High Templar after another will expend all of his energy Till all of the opponent's unit energy is burned out also. This should make the meta game a bit more interesting for it will pretty much forced the Protoss into deciding between burning enemy's energy storming as the best use of the High Templar's energy.
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On March 16 2010 04:51 Nemesis wrote:
How bout with the buff of sniper shot make it cost more energy too to balance things out.
but wouldnt it need to have enough energy to emp or would that be to imba because no storm plus emp would be like auto win for terran its pretty delicate
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anyone know the exact range for emp and feedback?
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On March 16 2010 09:25 mistermetal wrote:Show nested quote +So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?] The thing is, feedback is nearly useless, you rarely see HTs alone, they are with the toss army, and emp has a longer range then feedback, so its just better to emp the toss army/hts its effectively killing them, no energy, no shields, no attack.
Please don't just make up things and spew bullshit in my thread. Feedback has a longer range than EMP which is what makes this feasable.
GTFO
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I feel like abilities are OP in general right now. The battle shouldn't hinge entirely on who gets the first spell off (for it negates the opponent's spells and does damage), but rather a mix of who has more/better units, position, and spells. Instead of trying to make snipershot hard counter feedback hard counter emp hard counter storm, they should nerf all of them imo.
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Maybe this has been mentioned already, but I don't like Feedback on HT's at all. It's a direct counter to Terran's HT counter - Ghosts. Too many skirmishes will be won or lost based solely on whether the Feedback or EMP hits first.
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On March 16 2010 09:25 mistermetal wrote:
[quoteSo feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?]
The thing is, feedback is nearly useless, you rarely see HTs alone, they are with the toss army, and emp has a longer range then feedback, so its just better to emp the toss army/hts its effectively killing them, no energy, no shields, no attack.[/QUOTE]
please read a wiki or read the op before using incorrect data to come to pointless conclusions.
feedback cast range is higher. What the op is trying to say is. when your terran army is moving foward, when they come to emp the front of the toss army, HT feedback range is long enough to eat up ghosts before they can cast their own emp on a toss army.
at the topic. TvP really comes down to who can emp or feedback/storm first. If terran gets the emps off its complete rape. And if HT get feedback off and storm the terran army gets rolled like a hot knife through butter. Sure people can do cute things to try and out micro their opponent but it really just comes down to emp over feedback/storm. Unless terran goes on a different tech path that does not use bio this match up is kinda depressing. emp is just to effective vs everything toss has so doesn't matter to much.
As for the snipe ability, i don't know if thats going to help at all emp and feedback need to be reworked :/
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Siegetanks and bunkers are obviously really good protection against HTs. Not saying tanks are the current choice unit vs P, but if someone can find a way to work it in or if Blizzard indeed buffs mech we may see things flip.
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On March 16 2010 08:55 L wrote:
Why can't T just cloak his ghost, scan his own army to kill obs, then engage? If you do that, pretty much the entirety of templar tech becomes useless and you win right there.
Alternatively, why can't he EMP a medivac, put the ghost in there and drop it to emp when needed?
I really don't see how this is broken, or could be come broken.
Could someone please address the questions in this post for me?
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On March 16 2010 10:03 -orb- wrote:
How do you figure BCs are useless. BCs are crazy powerful
TvT: BCs can only be used if you have complete air control already as an easy way to finish off a match you have a huge lead in, a handful of vikings can kill any number of BC's unless you build up a massive yamato stockpile.
TvZ: Impractical, typical ZvT armies have snare and mass anti air already, Corruptors can also semi-kite by firing a volley and moving back, taking only tiny amounts of damage as the BC gets off a tick or 2 of it's rapid fire attack before it's out of range and has to lumber after the unit, Hydras can also do this to a lesser extent off creep and with ease on creep.
TvP: Stalkers can semi-kite these easily even without blink by shooting a volley and falling back, taking only minimal damage like the corruptor would do. Many toss prefer not to use stalkers, but that's ok because HT own the living hell out of BCs as well. There is literally nothing a BC can do to a HT. Yamato takes so long to cast that HTs can shift click feedback and get every single one of the BCs before a single yamato goes off, doing significant damage as well. BCs are also so horrifyingly slow that a HT can just waddle away from a pack of BCs while throwing storms behind it and the BCs cannot catch up to attack it.
Their air to ground dps is impressive on paper, but due to it's rapid fire/low damage attack and glacial move speed, it can be kited with ease by any race. I feel it's actually worse than it's bw counterpart, doing half the dps in 1 attack is more useful than high dps rapid-fire. Smart-cast yamato is very strong, however having a huge enough fleet of BCs that this can actually be used to advantage happens only in TvT since those matches can easily take 45 minutes and not be considered abnormal... (Vikings still own them silly in cost-effectiveness)
This unit needs an overhaul, or just reverted back to it's lackluster bw form, it's nearly unusable at present.
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I think snipe would be pretty cool and useful if it got a substantial buff.
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I really don't know what blizzard is planning to do with the ghost's snipe shot. Im assuming its sniping, scouts like marines, reapers and probes and stuff and maybe observers but even then the obs have 40 hp and 20 shields so yeah I definitely agree it needs to be buffed.
Maybe not buffed enough to snipe templars but at least enough to snipe observers. That would make it easier for ghosts to nuke and to be undetected which will indirectly buff emp.
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On March 16 2010 09:49 duckhunt wrote:
i can validate what orb is saying, i played a tvp vs him and it was 3 base vs 3 base and i was m axed, he was not, i emp'd about 10 of his hts and thought i could handle him but he flanked me with about 10 more hts and totally completely destroyed me LOL =P
That is more of an issue then the feedback vs EMP thing. Just shows that having more storm then EMP is just the way to win.
Now, I would love to see a replay where the Toss is able to feedback the 4-6 ghosts in the terran army before a couple of EMP are set off, because that is a cool showcase of skill and fast reaction time. Orb could you provide us with such a replay ?
Now to come back on the real topic:
Psy-storm rapes bio as much as EMP rapes toss. I find it absurd that a match-up is decided between 2 abilities only... Bringing feedback into the thing doesn't change anything, as well as bringing snipe to par. Whats the point of playing for 15 minutes if the game is decided by a couple of abilities thrown at each other in mere seconds in a point and click fashion ? Go play QuakeLive to show real aiming and fast reaction time skills.
Feedback on HT is borderline OP because its much too versatile for a unit that already has a major use in most match-up with high aoe damage (not even talking about the major buff that is warp gate and +25 starting energy compared to sc1 => Instant AOE defense anywhere on the map, sure yeah !! I don't figure out how people havn't been abusing this already...). Feedback was on Dark Archon, a unit with very seldom use except for some feedback, some maelstrom and some rare mind control. Giving the ability to shut-down any caster or in fact any unit with mana to a staple caster is asking for trouble.
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You could do all that stuff in the original post. Or you could just cloak your ghost
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Ghost does not need buff vs feedback...
very simple solution to this: Put ghost in Medivac, if medivac getting feedbacked is problem, drain medivac of mana (in base by spamming stim on a few marnies) and carry ghost until near battle, drop ghost into battlefield and use EMP etc... if you don't have the APM for this then don't complain.
same with templar in emp situation, use shuttle (warp prism?) and fly it into battle and after emp, drop templar, storm/feedback etc...
high apm people can pull this off
also degree of skill required to feedback a ghost freshly dropped out of a dropship in the midst of battle (reaction time as well etc)
also, draining medivac probalby isn't a huge issue since u will have multiple (which one is the ghost in?!?!)
please stop complaining about imbaness (i am also platinum level protoss player) emp needs nerf, not buff.
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On March 20 2010 03:03 RexFTW wrote:You could do all that stuff in the original post. Or you could just cloak your ghost
i hear obs detect
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EPT
