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On March 16 2010 04:50 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:47 theqat wrote:On March 16 2010 04:45 uhlyk wrote:
if u make it to do 85dmg, it will have to take lot of mana, or have cd like too much... otherwise it will be too powerfull against like everythink I think the idea would be to make it one-shot units under 90 HP or something. With other units it would deal its current damage. The point though isn't "it would be cool if it did that," its that in its current state it's fairly decently balanced and Blizz has already stated they're looking at other avenues to balance the matchup
I know, I was talking to the guy who thought it would be too overpowered 
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On March 16 2010 04:51 Nemesis wrote:
How bout with the buff of sniper shot make it cost more energy too to balance things out.
Yes, this would be a fine change imo. If you made it cost the same amount of energy as feedback (50 energy, so you're doubling the energy cost) and doubled the damage I think you'd have a really good change.
I feel like once the games get to the uber-pro point like broodwar is today it would be really exciting to see players trying to feedback/snipe each other and see which player can get all the enemy units, or if during that distraction period see if one player makes the choice to try to get an EMP/storm off etc.
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So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?
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On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?
Right. I've been told by a lot of the top terrans I've played that I'm the first one they've seen do this, but it's so powerful if executed correctly (I think this is the reason so many tosses don't use it, they'd rather attack-move with mass colossi than have to feedback every ghost meshed in with the terran army) that I imagine more protosses will start using it soon.
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Instead of buffing the damage, how about just making it ignore shields or do double damage vs shields. Im not sure what the current damage is, but if a ht is 40/40 and your sniper shot does 60 damage. It will do 40 damage to the shield (20 of the 60 is double vs a shield) and the remaining 40 is done to the hp, killing a ht. If you made it ignore shields you might have to tweak the damage as it might be too strong vs zealots.
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Have any of you guys considered just increasing Snipe's range instead of damage output?
I particularly think it would be cooler and fit more with the ghost character.
What about allowing snipe to be used from inside bunkers and letting the skill as is, mana/damage/range wise?
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I dont think this is necessary. Firstly, ghosts can cloak so templar cant see them without an obs. Secondly an EMP, though it has less range, can easily disable several templar at once while a feedback can only disable 1 ghost. All the ghosts have to do is get 1 good EMP in to stop (most) psi storms and kill a bunch of shields. Thirdly, forcing templar to use feedback makes them have less energy for psi storm anyway. Finally, if templar and ghosts are both behind their main forces, neither should be able to reach with feedback or snipe. Instead they will just be focusing EMP and storms on the forces. This sort of evens out since storms do 80 damage and EMPs do 100 (but only to shields)
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On March 16 2010 04:59 julealgon wrote:
Have any of you guys considered just increasing Snipe's range instead of damage output?
I particularly think it would be cooler and fit more with the ghost character.
What about allowing snipe to be used from inside bunkers and letting the skill as is, mana/damage/range wise?
The problem is this would waaaay shift the game in favor of T in terms of the protoss even hoping to use templar to counter EMP. It would become literally impossible to ever feedback ghosts against a terran with good micro/multitasking. Either solution really would be very detrimental. Ghosts would always be able to kill templar before templar are in range with the range increase, and if they could snipe from within bunkers you simply would have no way of dealing with them at all.
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On March 16 2010 05:02 VX14 wrote:
I dont think this is necessary. Firstly, ghosts can cloak so templar cant see them without an obs. Secondly an EMP, though it has less range, can easily disable several templar at once while a feedback can only disable 1 ghost. All the ghosts have to do is get 1 good EMP in to stop (most) psi storms and kill a bunch of shields. Thirdly, forcing templar to use feedback makes them have less energy for psi storm anyway. Finally, if templar and ghosts are both behind their main forces, neither should be able to reach with feedback or snipe. Instead they will just be focusing EMP and storms on the forces. This sort of evens out since storms do 80 damage and EMPs do 100 (but only to shields)
These are all good points, although in my experience it seems both forces seem to like to keep their casters in front to not get stormed/EMP'd without having a chance to negate the opponent's casters before they can reach the main army.
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Do you have a replay of this? I mean if the terran self-scans or has a raven in his unit clump to kill nearby observers, he can just cloak when the armies almost collide and still get his EMPs off, no?
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On March 16 2010 05:09 wintergt wrote:
Do you have a replay of this? I mean if the terran self-scans or has a raven in his unit clump to kill nearby observers, he can just cloak when the armies almost collide and still get his EMPs off, no?
I posted a replay at the end of my OP. It's not the best example, as the terran only had one ghost. If you really want I can dig through my replay directory and try to find one of my PvTs in which the terran had like 4 ghosts and got them all feedbacked before being able to cast a single EMP.
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On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet?
theres like 1 toss user who i played against out of all my games that seem to understand the imbalance
hes basically mass hts and cannons and getting a decent number of observers
hes expanding really quickly and spreading pylons effectivly. upgrading the +25 on hts really fast so as soon as i try attack an expo he warps in hts and storms the shit out of everything
once he gets a good econ going with about 3-4 bases he make like 5 colosus and finishes the game
im talking about ZeeRax, man that guy is really smart in the PvT match up. probably the only toss user who i have negative stats against, im like 2-7 against him
dont come here and tell me to make banshees btw because his observers scout everything, trust me he got money to counter w/e i do :p
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im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps
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On March 16 2010 04:25 -orb- wrote:
Let me start by saying I am a protoss player. I am near the top of my platinum division at around 1800 rating if I remember correctly. At its current state, I find myself in PvT doing everything I can to avoid harass/damage early game and trying to just make it to the late game as I have a very high win rate when I get to the late game in PvT without using a single colossus or immortal.
What exactly do you do to avoid harass/damage early game? You won't get psi storm in time for the fast 1-ghost EMP push, and you have no colossus backbone to rely upon to do your splash damage. Are you teching to psi storm after your first colossus?
On March 16 2010 04:57 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:55 wintergt wrote:
So feedback totally rapes terran but most protoss haven't been abusing this yet? Right. I've been told by a lot of the top terrans I've played that I'm the first one they've seen do this, but it's so powerful if executed correctly (I think this is the reason so many tosses don't use it, they'd rather attack-move with mass colossi than have to feedback every ghost meshed in with the terran army) that I imagine more protosses will start using it soon.
I don't think going straight templar without any colossi will ever become popular in mainstream PvT, unless major gameplay/stat changes are made. Colossi are reliable and mis-micro-ing them for a split second won't cost you the battle - you can't say the same bout HT because of how vulnerable they are - I could see Terran players sac'ing ghosts at various points before the "big battle" just to EMP your army.
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On March 16 2010 05:13 -orb- wrote:
If you really want I can dig through my replay directory and try to find one of my PvTs in which the terran had like 4 ghosts and got them all feedbacked before being able to cast a single EMP.
Yes, please do.
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Can't you terrans just use Siege tanks to keep templars away from ghosts.
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keep the ghost inside medivac if you dont want them to get picked out with feedback.The problem lies here in the fact that a terran never builds more than 1-2 ghosts because those are enough to get the job done completely.But you see protoss with 5-6 Templars or even more.So even if they can kill the Templars with 1 shot with their current play they will still fail.But making it double the cost double the dmg doesnt seem wrong.
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On March 16 2010 05:15 Fayth wrote:
im not sure how u manage to feedback like 6 ghosts before he shoots 1 EMP at ur temps
Pro ass skills yo
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On March 16 2010 05:19 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 04:25 -orb- wrote:
Let me start by saying I am a protoss player. I am near the top of my platinum division at around 1800 rating if I remember correctly. At its current state, I find myself in PvT doing everything I can to avoid harass/damage early game and trying to just make it to the late game as I have a very high win rate when I get to the late game in PvT without using a single colossus or immortal.
What exactly do you do to avoid harass/damage early game? You won't get psi storm in time for the fast 1-ghost EMP push, and you have no colossus backbone to rely upon to do your splash damage. Are you teching to psi storm after your first colossus?
I've personally never done orb's build before, but I'm guessing that the build will still open robo first for the observer. You should be able to get the observer out in time to scout out any possible early harass. In the case that the Terran will do a marauder push before you can get storm tech out on the field in time you can always chrono boost 1 or 2 immortals to hold off the push.
I think the general idea is to use obs to scout and allow you to counter early harass/push effectively without over-investing in immortals or colossi too early, and instead get HT with storm/feedback out asap.
anyone who has more experience with this build please correct me if i'm wrong.
EDIT: also, you should be able to get at least 1 HT out in time for the 1 ghost EMP push. If you're on high ground (which you should be as you're somewhat playing defensively) coupled with the superior range of feedback v. EMP, you should be able to feedback the single ghost before it gets in range of ur immortals and such. of course, if they hide their ghost in a medivac or something it'll be more problematic.
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EPT
