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On February 23 2010 07:31 DeMusliM wrote: Yo,
I'm a wc3 player from MYM - and so i can give my view on the transition from wc3->sc2 thus far. Myself and a few other wc3 players, such as nightend and hasu have all been massing alot of sc2 and have really enjoyed it. - I don't know how well the other wc3 guys are doing, but thus far us 3 seem to be doing alright hovering around the top of our divisions, and talking about how we beat X player or Y player on irc!
I know that previous to it's release, everyone assumed that the sc1 players would clearly dominate - and yes, i was under the impression they would have the advantage too - dealing with the late game macro aspects. But so far - i've not really had any problem switching games, i don't know if that's because the mechanics are more similar to that of wc3 - (buildings in the same hotkey) and automining etc etc the list goes on.
Wc3, will draw its curtains pretty shortly after sc2 is released in my opinion, the game has been playing the same maps for 5 years +, with no change despite obvious imbalances - making the game dull and boring for the player, never mind the observer. But also the race dominance right now of 1 race in particular further enforces the fact the game isn't really cared about by blizzard anymore. Be this a scheme to enduce wc3 players into buying sc2 since it's not as broke as wc3??? I don't know.
So far - in terms of Which players are best, it's impossible to say - it's too early, and too many things are deciding factors right now that won't be in a few weeks/months time. But thus far - i haven't noticed a difference between wc3/scbw players - in all honesty, i see the Mouz/mtw tags and i kinda freak out abit, but i can't pinpoint exactly what was different from the previous "noname" opponent which really is quite fun! I've played good players from all games, even be it WoW - (Orly was pretty good!) I'd pretty much go as far to say it's an open field for everyone, with no major advantage besides the fact the sc:bw players are definetely used to the late game macro aspect without the hotkeys making it easier.
Ya I'd definitely listen to Demu, he is one of the top in the world.
big fan man, so sick that you joined tl.net haha, this site is baller
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The only thing that truly matters for SC2 is your APM and ability to adapt your playstyle SC2 isnt WC3 or SC1
That being said SC2 is MUCH closer to SC1 then it is to WC3 mainly in the macro sence. Micro wise i dont see any side having an edge both game you need to position your army in favorable positions and keep your low hp units alive.
One big note to take into consideration is WC3 players won't have a very easy time picking up zerg macro seeing as WC3 has nothing close to the zerg race.
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We have the Undead (which is kinda Xel'Naga as it's protoss build style over creep)!
But I guess most TL.netters tried some AoX and that would definitely be closes of all games to SC2.
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HAHAHA ORCS SWITCHED TO PROTOSS
how predictable is that
ROFL
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You are German, go read our articles on Fragster.de Basicly everyone who got a key from the wc3 community is playing nonstop :p
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Nothing in this games takes more micro beyond dragoon micro in SC:BW. The only players that are doing the "best" are the ones that care enough to perfect a build do it every game instead of experimenting.
That's a load of rubbish from a third tier "pro"
That's not true (at all). SC micro is different than WC3 micro because in WC3 the entire game revolves around where your army is and SC you must take the entire map into consideration especially with the nydus worms, warping in, reapers, backdooring, etc.
I can juggle 3 objects rather easily... I can play WC3... I can't juggle while playing WC3. Playing SC1 is like a juggling act where your attention is constantly being pulled in many directions. It also happens in WC3, but in a MUCH less degree.
I personally think WC3 takes LESS micro AND LESS macro, the reason WC3 seems on the surface to require more micro is because that's all there is to the game. Just because that's all there is doesn't mean it's any more in depth.
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On February 23 2010 11:34 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +Nothing in this games takes more micro beyond dragoon micro in SC:BW. The only players that are doing the "best" are the ones that care enough to perfect a build do it every game instead of experimenting.
That's a load of rubbish from a third tier "pro" That's not true (at all). SC micro is different than WC3 micro because in WC3 the entire game revolves around where your army is and SC you must take the entire map into consideration especially with the nydus worms, warping in, reapers, backdooring, etc. I can juggle 3 objects rather easily... I can play WC3... I can't juggle while playing WC3. Playing SC1 is like a juggling act where your attention is constantly being pulled in many directions. It also happens in WC3, but in a MUCH less degree. I personally think WC3 takes LESS micro AND LESS macro, the reason WC3 seems on the surface to require more micro is because that's all there is to the game. Just because that's all there is doesn't mean it's any more in depth.
I find microing in SC a lot harder than in WC3. It isn't very hard to send your hero or near invincible grunts back, but I find it very difficult (and more satisfying) to keep marines alive against chabulings early game. There is more micro in WC3, simply because in SC it is physically impossible to care about each individual unit in large enough battle, but the micro in SC is definitely much harder.
And which players will prevail? SC. Easily. But only if the Koreans move in. Before that I expect it to be quite even.
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lets not make this a micro/macro sc vs. wc3 thread again... :/
back on topic. we even had a top level pro give his thoughts on it, don't wanna lock this thread
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On February 23 2010 00:45 torm3ntin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 00:10 Raydog wrote:On February 22 2010 23:48 RaGe wrote:On February 22 2010 17:28 Raydog wrote:On February 22 2010 16:49 zatic wrote: Reception in WC3 community?
I am pretty ignorant towards what’s going on in the WC3 scene. Can people who are knowledgeable about WC3 please share how SC2 has been received so far in the WC3 community? Specifically
- Comments and impressions from top WC3 players who have played the beta - Prevailing opinion on the game just generally - How well can you apply your WC3 skill to SC2 - To what extend is SC2 expected to replace WC3? - Do WC3 players feel they have an advantage over SC player in SC2? Vice versa?
Or generally expand on what the WC3 scene thinks about the SC2 beta. I am sure many people on TL are interested to hear what RTS gamers outside our bubble think about SC2.
Well, i haven't played the beta, but i played a lot at blizzcon if that helps. I came from a sponsored wc3 team and commentated for a brief time (might get back into it idk), so i'd say i have extensive knowledge of the game. all the top players i know from war3 are STILL playing the beta haha. They are loving it. I think the game is great, really fun, a "fresh start", basically everything that has been said already on tl a million times on the war3 to sc2 skills, i'd say they can be applied well, but not as well as sc:bw skills. A lot of sc:bw players get the misconception that war3 players don't know anything about sc, but really we keep up with the latest in the korean pro leagues for sc:bw. We know general builds, 12 hatch, etc. We are fans of the game. -But back to the skills, in my opinion, you will be able to pick out the wc3 players from the sc:bw players. since warcraft 3 is a lot more micro oriented, you will see us in fights (maybe not big/huge scale ones) pull units back with barely any hp left, send em back in to fight from a different angle, just general warcraft 3 micro. Also, wc3 macro is easier, so it will be harder for wc3 players to adjust macro-wise. Because wc3 really only needs 2 - 3 macro buildings, and we don't constantly make workers for a good part of the game, only the start. I honestly have no idea to what extent it will replace sc2. All I know is that I have heard/talked to multiple high level pros (above hasuobs, nightend, etc.) and they said they would try sc2 and see how it goes, and will decide from there whether or not to make the switch. I think because of the current imbalance issue (*cough* orc vs undead matchup *cough*) sc2 will gravitate more players. Because having a top level game where thousands of dollars are on the line, there shouldn't be imbalances in the way. They should be addressed immediately. I think wc3 players feel they are going into this at teh same or a little worse off than the sc players. Ya they are both comming from blizzard RTS games, but sc has no heroes, 200 food limit, and just a whole different playstyle than wc3. Wc3 is a game where you only need maybe 185+ apm in order to achieve everything you need in a game (depends on the race of course). But sc i know requires a looot more. and Wc3 players have more apm than just 185 anyway, but im just saying that is an estimate on how much they need. all I know is i've been playing sc:bw for about 3 weeks to prepare for beta, also for just a new challenge. It is a fun-ass game, and at times a lot more fun than wc3 . But really the wc3 scene is happy and afraid for sc2,same as sc:bw people. will wc3 become just a shadow to sc2, with no more leagues, tournaments, etc? (few posts up) and yes, NightEnd is a wc3 player, and a really good one at that. lol nice to know glad someone noticed xD best post by far on this topic. Thanks for it
Agreed!
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I don't think you can just say that WC3-players or SC1-players will have a definite advantage in SC2, because of several reasons:
- Many WC3-players have played SC1 and/or other RTS, which is a great "training" for SC2 - SC2 isn't SC1 and the similar things can be learned by determined ppl that wanna be Pro's. - It's more about basic skills like determination, ability to learn fast, playing A LOT of games, the will to learn from others. Pro's in either WC3 or SC1 have those skills, because both games are really competetive and have a large Community where you really need to be good in all those things to rise to the Top.
I think it's also totally possible for new talents to be awesome in SC2, because we see still see that in all the other games that are being played on a professional level.
But of course it's always good to play SC1, because it's just THE RTS that requires the full package of Skills and where you really learn to macro, multitask, micro and, maybe most important of all, learning when it's appropriate to do which of those things. In WC3 for example, it's all about Micromanagement. In other RTS, like Warhammer40K, it's all about Multitasking, in SC, you need both plus the Macromanagement-Aspect and thats why SC1 is IMHO the best RTS to develop Basic Skills you need to play almost any RTS on a high level.
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" SC2 isn't SC1 and the similar things can be learned by determined ppl that wanna be Pro's"
SC2 is more similar to WC3 not in gameplay, but mechanics in the sense that SC2 incorporates many of the improvements to the RTS genre that was developed in latter years when wc3 was improved. I know one huge difference is just shift-queuing your worker commands, using multiple waypoint pathing, etc... things that use to require a lot more apm to accomplish that are done using this method, and wc3 players are use to it like second nature.
luckily, most sc2/sc:bw players have played wc3 at one point or another (i really don't know a single hardcore sc fan that didn't buy wc3 when it came out), and the other way around, so the camps are hardly distinct at all. Names like Grubby, Tod, Rival.Showtime, Moon, are about as recognizeable here as Boxer, Yellow, Nal Ra, Grr, are in the wc3 forums.
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The players on wcreplays are retarded. Also they're trying way to hard to play with wc3 mentality in sc. For as long as I played wc3 thats has its always been when an SC discussion came up.
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I'm loving the situation SC2 has brought us.
It almost feels like watching the earlier days of MMA where you had pure Strikers with shit ground game, Jiu-jitsu masters who couldn't punch, wrestlers etc.
Also,
On February 22 2010 23:51 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 22:21 Rothbardian wrote:On February 22 2010 21:29 Damian wrote:On February 22 2010 21:23 Daedes wrote: i love how on that fourm everyone is saying everything is op You would do it aswell if you were used to it like them "DeMuslim, Zerter, Sein and NightEnD" = Who cares? Sorry, but they arent and never were top-tier material in Wc3. I'd love to hear the opinion of players like Grubby, Lucifer (I adored his interviews ), Moon, TeD, Sky, ToD, Remind, Lyn and the likes... And LOL to the guy who mentioned "Age of"-players. Yeah...LOL. I know a few Age guys who have been playing SC for the past year getting ready for SCII and they made A-. LOL yourself. Hope_, Iamgrunt, and Koven could roflstomp 99% of the SC/WC3 RTS players. what are their iccup id's? anyway, being able to hit A- means something like top 100 in the non-korean non-chinese community. it's several levels of skill away from being one of the top foreigner players. it's decent but not really notable. imo if you're trying to make them look good, you're better off hiding that info my mind would be blown if flash and jaedong switched games and after a year couldnt even make a dent in its amateur scene :o Imagine Flash and Jaedong playing only Age of Empires, and then switching to StarCraft(in a foreign enviroment, not directly to the proteam). Could they go higher than A- in the first year? I don't think they could. A- in one year is sick imho.
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Playing 16 hours a day helps with pro scene huge skillgap
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I don't think either games players have an advantage. In fact I am pretty confident there will be some no names from either scene that will come out of nowhere and among the top of the ladder.
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I play both SC:BW and WC3 -- so I guess I win
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okay guys not having a key made me read much and i have to give my oppinion on this one :L
i played several rts games competetive in the last 9 years and playing competetive doesn't always mean that u r rly playing competetive. i remember when i thought i played competetive back in my first days and today i realized, i was not even close.
to be good at sc2. it doesn't matter wether u played sc, wc3, c&c, dow, aoe etc.
what matters is HOW u played it and i don't mean how good. what is most important is the way u think about the game.
the never ending discussion who will be better @ sc2 in the beginning, wc3 players or original sc players.
u can't tell at all, because everybody can do pretty decent if they think about the game in the right way.
one thing i can tell u for sure, is that many sc players especially those here on TL are at an disadvantage and most of them dont even realize.
"what is this guy saying???" "is he stupid?"
let me explain. SC has been around a long, long time with a great, great community. because of that there is massive data about the game in terms of guides, vods etc.
im pretty sure there are a lot of good sc players out there, but many of them learned the game from this "data" and therefor did not think much about the game themselves.
u can be a good sc player if u just learn all bo's etc. ofc u need mechanics too but everybody knows that and can watch his apm and say to himself "yeah i have to improve". it is totaly obvious and every noob realizes this.
but sc2 isn't sc: bw and most bo's won't apply. that is the problem. ur 500apm wont help u becoming really good at a new game. ofc it helps if ur opponent is as good as u are strategical. but the ones that reign early, are those that can develop their own bo's that actually get the job done by thinking them through deeply. make the right decisions etc.
it won't help u if u know that 3hatch muta is a good build vs terra in sc (or 2hatch whatever) u need to know WHY IT IS A GOOD BUILD.
there is currently nearly zero "data" about sc2 and if u continue to depend on it like u did before, u will never climb the top. (at least in the first years)
once u realize this, u r good to go, hf competing with the best.
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i have to admit, my extensive knowledge of zerg in BW is hindering my ability to play SC2 as a brand new game.
i may have to switch races.
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i think everyone have an equal chance of playing sc2 good (except WoW players...) as soon as you know the mech of the game and use it well
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On February 24 2010 06:43 eMbrace wrote: i have to admit, my extensive knowledge of zerg in BW is hindering my ability to play SC2 as a brand new game.
i may have to switch races. Yeah, I think Blizz could've saved everyone much trouble if they just made up 3 new names for the races
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