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On February 23 2010 00:10 Raydog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 23:48 RaGe wrote:On February 22 2010 17:28 Raydog wrote:On February 22 2010 16:49 zatic wrote: Reception in WC3 community?
I am pretty ignorant towards what’s going on in the WC3 scene. Can people who are knowledgeable about WC3 please share how SC2 has been received so far in the WC3 community? Specifically
- Comments and impressions from top WC3 players who have played the beta - Prevailing opinion on the game just generally - How well can you apply your WC3 skill to SC2 - To what extend is SC2 expected to replace WC3? - Do WC3 players feel they have an advantage over SC player in SC2? Vice versa?
Or generally expand on what the WC3 scene thinks about the SC2 beta. I am sure many people on TL are interested to hear what RTS gamers outside our bubble think about SC2.
Well, i haven't played the beta, but i played a lot at blizzcon if that helps. I came from a sponsored wc3 team and commentated for a brief time (might get back into it idk), so i'd say i have extensive knowledge of the game. all the top players i know from war3 are STILL playing the beta haha. They are loving it. I think the game is great, really fun, a "fresh start", basically everything that has been said already on tl a million times on the war3 to sc2 skills, i'd say they can be applied well, but not as well as sc:bw skills. A lot of sc:bw players get the misconception that war3 players don't know anything about sc, but really we keep up with the latest in the korean pro leagues for sc:bw. We know general builds, 12 hatch, etc. We are fans of the game. -But back to the skills, in my opinion, you will be able to pick out the wc3 players from the sc:bw players. since warcraft 3 is a lot more micro oriented, you will see us in fights (maybe not big/huge scale ones) pull units back with barely any hp left, send em back in to fight from a different angle, just general warcraft 3 micro. Also, wc3 macro is easier, so it will be harder for wc3 players to adjust macro-wise. Because wc3 really only needs 2 - 3 macro buildings, and we don't constantly make workers for a good part of the game, only the start. I honestly have no idea to what extent it will replace sc2. All I know is that I have heard/talked to multiple high level pros (above hasuobs, nightend, etc.) and they said they would try sc2 and see how it goes, and will decide from there whether or not to make the switch. I think because of the current imbalance issue (*cough* orc vs undead matchup *cough*) sc2 will gravitate more players. Because having a top level game where thousands of dollars are on the line, there shouldn't be imbalances in the way. They should be addressed immediately. I think wc3 players feel they are going into this at teh same or a little worse off than the sc players. Ya they are both comming from blizzard RTS games, but sc has no heroes, 200 food limit, and just a whole different playstyle than wc3. Wc3 is a game where you only need maybe 185+ apm in order to achieve everything you need in a game (depends on the race of course). But sc i know requires a looot more. and Wc3 players have more apm than just 185 anyway, but im just saying that is an estimate on how much they need. all I know is i've been playing sc:bw for about 3 weeks to prepare for beta, also for just a new challenge. It is a fun-ass game, and at times a lot more fun than wc3 . But really the wc3 scene is happy and afraid for sc2,same as sc:bw people. will wc3 become just a shadow to sc2, with no more leagues, tournaments, etc? (few posts up) and yes, NightEnd is a wc3 player, and a really good one at that. lol nice to know glad someone noticed xD
best post by far on this topic. Thanks for it
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On February 22 2010 18:04 LunarDestiny wrote: I could imagine they say something like: Holy Shit, the Starcraft series always gets the good stuff while we get all the crappy stuff. Man, FUCK this WC3 shit. I am switching over and play some Starcraft 2 dammit.
Starcraft "series"? There's currently a single Starcraft game out right now... hardly a series if you ask me..
I would imagine SC2 would attract a lot of current WC3 players. It represents a fresh start and a Battle.net ladder that isn't ruined by a plague of hackers yet and won't be for at least a good month or two.
Seriously, though. Has anyone actually played WC3 lately? The hacking is out of control.
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SC is a series. There are multiple books, board games, a PC game and an expansion
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Yeah... making Starcraft a franchise, not a series... at least not yet. Not that the word itself is tremendously important, but I just felt that it was a bit inaccurate.
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On February 23 2010 00:39 nard wrote: can't wait for ANGRY_KOREA_MAN sc2 replays
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Return of the Kings!!!
Grubby, FoV, ToD, Creo... assssssemmble!
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On February 23 2010 03:28 HeartOfTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 18:04 LunarDestiny wrote: I could imagine they say something like: Holy Shit, the Starcraft series always gets the good stuff while we get all the crappy stuff. Man, FUCK this WC3 shit. I am switching over and play some Starcraft 2 dammit. Starcraft "series"? There's currently a single Starcraft game out right now... hardly a series if you ask me.. I would imagine SC2 would attract a lot of current WC3 players. It represents a fresh start and a Battle.net ladder that isn't ruined by a plague of hackers yet and won't be for at least a good month or two. Seriously, though. Has anyone actually played WC3 lately? The hacking is out of control. nice that no good wc3 player is playing the bnet ladder.
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On February 23 2010 04:24 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 03:28 HeartOfTofu wrote:On February 22 2010 18:04 LunarDestiny wrote: I could imagine they say something like: Holy Shit, the Starcraft series always gets the good stuff while we get all the crappy stuff. Man, FUCK this WC3 shit. I am switching over and play some Starcraft 2 dammit. Starcraft "series"? There's currently a single Starcraft game out right now... hardly a series if you ask me.. I would imagine SC2 would attract a lot of current WC3 players. It represents a fresh start and a Battle.net ladder that isn't ruined by a plague of hackers yet and won't be for at least a good month or two. Seriously, though. Has anyone actually played WC3 lately? The hacking is out of control. nice that no good wc3 player is playing the bnet ladder.
ya no players who are competitive about wc3 play on bnet, except asia ladder (interviews show WemadeFox plays there). The rest just play on Garena. Usually better latency, no hacks, but nothing compared to iccup for sc. iccup for wc3 is a complete joke haha
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Yo,
I'm a wc3 player from MYM - and so i can give my view on the transition from wc3->sc2 thus far. Myself and a few other wc3 players, such as nightend and hasu have all been massing alot of sc2 and have really enjoyed it. - I don't know how well the other wc3 guys are doing, but thus far us 3 seem to be doing alright hovering around the top of our divisions, and talking about how we beat X player or Y player on irc!
I know that previous to it's release, everyone assumed that the sc1 players would clearly dominate - and yes, i was under the impression they would have the advantage too - dealing with the late game macro aspects. But so far - i've not really had any problem switching games, i don't know if that's because the mechanics are more similar to that of wc3 - (buildings in the same hotkey) and automining etc etc the list goes on.
Wc3, will draw its curtains pretty shortly after sc2 is released in my opinion, the game has been playing the same maps for 5 years +, with no change despite obvious imbalances - making the game dull and boring for the player, never mind the observer. But also the race dominance right now of 1 race in particular further enforces the fact the game isn't really cared about by blizzard anymore. Be this a scheme to enduce wc3 players into buying sc2 since it's not as broke as wc3??? I don't know.
So far - in terms of Which players are best, it's impossible to say - it's too early, and too many things are deciding factors right now that won't be in a few weeks/months time. But thus far - i haven't noticed a difference between wc3/scbw players - in all honesty, i see the Mouz/mtw tags and i kinda freak out abit, but i can't pinpoint exactly what was different from the previous "noname" opponent which really is quite fun! I've played good players from all games, even be it WoW - (Orly was pretty good!) I'd pretty much go as far to say it's an open field for everyone, with no major advantage besides the fact the sc:bw players are definetely used to the late game macro aspect without the hotkeys making it easier.
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On February 22 2010 20:34 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 18:48 PokePill wrote:On February 22 2010 18:33 cyclone25 wrote: As Zerter said in his interview: "The general feel of the way you micro and macro is similiar to WC3, but strategy-wise it resembles StarCraft a lot more."
I think the W3 players are better when it comes to SC2 mechanics, therefore they are doing better at the moment. But when SC players will catch up with that, I can easily see them over the W3 players, due to their better game knowledge (strategy/tactic wise). Nothing in this games takes more micro beyond dragoon micro in SC:BW. The only players that are doing the "best" are the ones that care enough to perfect a build do it every game instead of experimenting. That's a load of rubbish from a third tier "pro". Just listen to the PvP match Day[9] analyzed. He said he has a very hard time in getting used to the new keyboard shortcuts (he still used the SC1 ones by instinct and probes/pylons won't build etc.). Another example is the reduced unit glitching: W3 players are more used to it (in the example you gave, knowing how to micro dragoons in SC1 is a useless skill to have in SC2). Then we can talk about all producing buildings which can get in one hotkey (W3 players know how this works, they know to tab fast between them, while SC players need to learn how to be fast with it). So the W3 players will have the mechanics advantage, because as everyone noticed the games end pretty fast and not going in late game. But as players will learn the game, and the games will last longer I can see SC players experience kick in, and be better than the W3 players.
You have made 2 consecutive posts, one longer than the other to state the same thing: - WC3 players have it easier now due to their better familiarity with the mechanics - BW players will come ahead of them when they get a grasp of it due to experience
I believe that you miscalculated just one thing, SC2 is completely different game than BW and I'm not sure that a lot of old experience is going to help you in the new stuff (and in some situations, it might even hinder you more than help). As some old proverb says, it's hard to pour anything to the cup that's already full. In my opinion (as an ex WC3 player and from what I read/saw/heard so far) the skill level is going to be more or less equal. WC3 players might have a slight advantage now thanks to being accustomed to some of the SC2 mechanics and inner workings (unit AI, 3D, destructible rocks and stuff like that) but I also think that, at the same time, they're being hindered just like SC2 players. Both have to deal with completely new game and some of their past habits will certainly get in the way of things for them. I call it a draw.
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to the poster above - wouldn't worry about the cyclone romanian fellow, he's a troll on the wc3 forums - you'll have to cope with him
Ah yes i forgot to mention which races from wc3 are doing the best too!
Humans - i only know of me, i tried protoss, didn't like the "boxish" style of play, so tried terran/zerg, much prefered terran. Undeads - Most switched to protoss or zerg. orcs - Protoss for 90% of them. Nightelves - mainly protoss, a few terran/zerg.
So far, the UD's and Humans have been doing the best, with the orcs trailing behind.
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On February 23 2010 07:47 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 20:34 cyclone25 wrote:On February 22 2010 18:48 PokePill wrote:On February 22 2010 18:33 cyclone25 wrote: As Zerter said in his interview: "The general feel of the way you micro and macro is similiar to WC3, but strategy-wise it resembles StarCraft a lot more."
I think the W3 players are better when it comes to SC2 mechanics, therefore they are doing better at the moment. But when SC players will catch up with that, I can easily see them over the W3 players, due to their better game knowledge (strategy/tactic wise). Nothing in this games takes more micro beyond dragoon micro in SC:BW. The only players that are doing the "best" are the ones that care enough to perfect a build do it every game instead of experimenting. That's a load of rubbish from a third tier "pro". Just listen to the PvP match Day[9] analyzed. He said he has a very hard time in getting used to the new keyboard shortcuts (he still used the SC1 ones by instinct and probes/pylons won't build etc.). Another example is the reduced unit glitching: W3 players are more used to it (in the example you gave, knowing how to micro dragoons in SC1 is a useless skill to have in SC2). Then we can talk about all producing buildings which can get in one hotkey (W3 players know how this works, they know to tab fast between them, while SC players need to learn how to be fast with it). So the W3 players will have the mechanics advantage, because as everyone noticed the games end pretty fast and not going in late game. But as players will learn the game, and the games will last longer I can see SC players experience kick in, and be better than the W3 players. You have made 2 consecutive posts, one longer than the other to state the same thing: - WC3 players have it easier now due to their better familiarity with the mechanics - BW players will come ahead of them when they get a grasp of it due to experience I believe that you miscalculated just one thing, SC2 is completely different game than BW and I'm not sure that a lot of old experience is going to help you in the new stuff (and in some situations, it might even hinder you more than help). As some old proverb says, it's hard to pour anything to the cup that's already full. In my opinion (as an ex WC3 player and from what I read/saw/heard so far) the skill level is going to be more or less equal. WC3 players might have a slight advantage now thanks to being accustomed to some of the SC2 mechanics and inner workings (unit AI, 3D, destructible rocks and stuff like that) but I also think that, at the same time, they're being hindered just like SC2 players. Both have to deal with completely new game and some of their past habits will certainly get in the way of things for them. I call it a draw. Creep camps = destructible rocks?
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New game, pretty sure everyone is on an equal level
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DeMusliM, one question. There is another thread ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113054 ) about the health bar system creating clutter in sc2. I imagine you are probably rather used to the health bars being on from WC3, so I was wondering if you could comment on how it feels in SC2 over in that thread (if you use the hp bars in sc2). Comment in that thread that is, so this one doesn't get derailed
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 23 2010 07:31 DeMusliM wrote: Yo,
I'm a wc3 player from MYM - and so i can give my view on the transition from wc3->sc2 thus far. Myself and a few other wc3 players, such as nightend and hasu have all been massing alot of sc2 and have really enjoyed it. - I don't know how well the other wc3 guys are doing, but thus far us 3 seem to be doing alright hovering around the top of our divisions, and talking about how we beat X player or Y player on irc!
I know that previous to it's release, everyone assumed that the sc1 players would clearly dominate - and yes, i was under the impression they would have the advantage too - dealing with the late game macro aspects. But so far - i've not really had any problem switching games, i don't know if that's because the mechanics are more similar to that of wc3 - (buildings in the same hotkey) and automining etc etc the list goes on.
Wc3, will draw its curtains pretty shortly after sc2 is released in my opinion, the game has been playing the same maps for 5 years +, with no change despite obvious imbalances - making the game dull and boring for the player, never mind the observer. But also the race dominance right now of 1 race in particular further enforces the fact the game isn't really cared about by blizzard anymore. Be this a scheme to enduce wc3 players into buying sc2 since it's not as broke as wc3??? I don't know.
So far - in terms of Which players are best, it's impossible to say - it's too early, and too many things are deciding factors right now that won't be in a few weeks/months time. But thus far - i haven't noticed a difference between wc3/scbw players - in all honesty, i see the Mouz/mtw tags and i kinda freak out abit, but i can't pinpoint exactly what was different from the previous "noname" opponent which really is quite fun! I've played good players from all games, even be it WoW - (Orly was pretty good!) I'd pretty much go as far to say it's an open field for everyone, with no major advantage besides the fact the sc:bw players are definetely used to the late game macro aspect without the hotkeys making it easier.
<3 Watching your Human games, especially HU v Orc. And yeah, I haven't noticed any real difference either.
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On February 23 2010 07:53 Jyvblamo wrote:Creep camps = destructible rocks?
I was primarily a 2v2 player so maps like Avalanche come to mind where each team had a double-expansion spot behind the destructible rocks between their bases.
Edit: Actually, there were quite a few strategies revolving solely on the capability of taking down this rocks early on and securing this expansion spots.
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On February 23 2010 07:58 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 07:53 Jyvblamo wrote:On February 23 2010 07:47 Manit0u wrote:On February 22 2010 20:34 cyclone25 wrote:On February 22 2010 18:48 PokePill wrote:On February 22 2010 18:33 cyclone25 wrote: As Zerter said in his interview: "The general feel of the way you micro and macro is similiar to WC3, but strategy-wise it resembles StarCraft a lot more."
I think the W3 players are better when it comes to SC2 mechanics, therefore they are doing better at the moment. But when SC players will catch up with that, I can easily see them over the W3 players, due to their better game knowledge (strategy/tactic wise). Nothing in this games takes more micro beyond dragoon micro in SC:BW. The only players that are doing the "best" are the ones that care enough to perfect a build do it every game instead of experimenting. That's a load of rubbish from a third tier "pro". Just listen to the PvP match Day[9] analyzed. He said he has a very hard time in getting used to the new keyboard shortcuts (he still used the SC1 ones by instinct and probes/pylons won't build etc.). Another example is the reduced unit glitching: W3 players are more used to it (in the example you gave, knowing how to micro dragoons in SC1 is a useless skill to have in SC2). Then we can talk about all producing buildings which can get in one hotkey (W3 players know how this works, they know to tab fast between them, while SC players need to learn how to be fast with it). So the W3 players will have the mechanics advantage, because as everyone noticed the games end pretty fast and not going in late game. But as players will learn the game, and the games will last longer I can see SC players experience kick in, and be better than the W3 players. You have made 2 consecutive posts, one longer than the other to state the same thing: - WC3 players have it easier now due to their better familiarity with the mechanics - BW players will come ahead of them when they get a grasp of it due to experience I believe that you miscalculated just one thing, SC2 is completely different game than BW and I'm not sure that a lot of old experience is going to help you in the new stuff (and in some situations, it might even hinder you more than help). As some old proverb says, it's hard to pour anything to the cup that's already full. In my opinion (as an ex WC3 player and from what I read/saw/heard so far) the skill level is going to be more or less equal. WC3 players might have a slight advantage now thanks to being accustomed to some of the SC2 mechanics and inner workings (unit AI, 3D, destructible rocks and stuff like that) but I also think that, at the same time, they're being hindered just like SC2 players. Both have to deal with completely new game and some of their past habits will certainly get in the way of things for them. I call it a draw. Creep camps = destructible rocks? I was primarily a 2v2 player so maps like Avalanche come to mind where each team had a double-expansion spot behind the destructible rocks between their bases. + Show Spoiler + Whoa, news to me. I guess I haven't watched enough WC3 pro vods to notice them.
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On February 23 2010 07:59 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 07:58 Manit0u wrote:I was primarily a 2v2 player so maps like Avalanche come to mind where each team had a double-expansion spot behind the destructible rocks between their bases. + Show Spoiler + Whoa, news to me. I guess I haven't watched enough WC3 pro vods to notice them.
Pro-scene 2v2 has deteriorated a lot over the past couple of years (including the disappearance of 2v2-only players). That's why you might have missed it.
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On February 22 2010 17:28 Raydog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 16:49 zatic wrote: Reception in WC3 community?
I am pretty ignorant towards what’s going on in the WC3 scene. Can people who are knowledgeable about WC3 please share how SC2 has been received so far in the WC3 community? Specifically
- Comments and impressions from top WC3 players who have played the beta - Prevailing opinion on the game just generally - How well can you apply your WC3 skill to SC2 - To what extend is SC2 expected to replace WC3? - Do WC3 players feel they have an advantage over SC player in SC2? Vice versa?
Or generally expand on what the WC3 scene thinks about the SC2 beta. I am sure many people on TL are interested to hear what RTS gamers outside our bubble think about SC2.
on the war3 to sc2 skills, i'd say they can be applied well, but not as well as sc:bw skills. A lot of sc:bw players get the misconception that war3 players don't know anything about sc, but really we keep up with the latest in the korean pro leagues for sc:bw. We know general builds, 12 hatch, etc. We are fans of the game. -But back to the skills, in my opinion, you will be able to pick out the wc3 players from the sc:bw players. since warcraft 3 is a lot more micro oriented, you will see us in fights (maybe not big/huge scale ones) pull units back with barely any hp left, send em back in to fight from a different angle, just general warcraft 3 micro. Also, wc3 macro is easier, so it will be harder for wc3 players to adjust macro-wise. Because wc3 really only needs 2 - 3 macro buildings, and we don't constantly make workers for a good part of the game, only the start.
I totally agree, I played a player who had AMAZING micro! (Like 3 times better than mine.) But his macro was terribad and he stayed on 1 base the whole game because expanding is something they're not used to. I easily beat him because I had way more units. I think if WC3 players can learn that they need to make more units they can become as good as the sc:bw players.
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