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zergpower123
United States197 Posts
SO frustrating to watch. In broodwar, you would not see a player not build sunks, in this game everyone is not even building one! I mean these are mobile sunks and spores, much more useful than the ones in SC1. All too often, the zerg player has an expo, has his army near the opposing groups base and is destroyed in a fight, well if he had some sunks already at his expo, it would be safe . | ||
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Kot
Australia148 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
pretty much evry single rep ive seen of a decent zerg he could easily fend off any pressure and take mapcontrol till the enemys tech kicks in the mid game starts. | ||
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abyss
Czech Republic139 Posts
On February 22 2010 02:28 Kot wrote: It kinda sucks cause you have to prebuild them, if you start building as they leave their base they aren't ever finished in time from what i've played so far the maps seem smallish D: In brood war too on small maps I think he is right, but it needs time to evolve zerg play. It needs some genius player who´s gonna come up with some smart builds. Not just 1 hatch roach massing. | ||
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AskJoshy
United States1625 Posts
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zergpower123
United States197 Posts
I know that this game is different in some ways from SC1, but you have to have defense! I'm seeing guys do early expo and no sunks to even defend it or if they are going roaches, hydras, etc I still don't see any sunks to protect them when they move out. | ||
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zergpower123
United States197 Posts
So I guess no more sunk whoring as in broodwars? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
In sc1, you make sunks when you are teching to something. Occasionally when you're ahead and you want to defend from drops in zvt but that's it. Examples: ZvZ: Going muta faster than him but can't pump the lings for defense. Add 1 sunk ZvT: Going lair tech and can't compete with a mnm+f group without them. Add sunks ZvP: Turtling off 4gas to ultra, Add sunk/spore/lurker to turtle to ultra. If zerg army is overwhelmed, what makes you think making sunkens and an even weaker army will help? Either the zerg has to have an eco advantage to be able to comfortably turtle or he has to rely on his army to take new expos in order to do so. These people are probably very good and smart RTS players, I'm sure they're aware of the benefits of static D. Maybe when people get a better feel for the game they'll know when they need sunkens to defend timing pushes when teching to hive or something. | ||
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bioboyAT
Austria1765 Posts
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FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
On February 22 2010 05:55 bioboyAT wrote: sunkens aren't as powerfull anymore in sc2, often you are better of building units, though spore colonies own vs mutas or other air units Then what do you supposed is the function of the sunken then? | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On February 22 2010 05:55 bioboyAT wrote: sunkens aren't as powerfull anymore in sc2, often you are better of building units, though spore colonies own vs mutas or other air units Pretty much, except spore colony range kinda sux now. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On February 22 2010 05:59 Liquid_Turbo wrote: Then what do you supposed is the function of the sunken then? What's intended really doesn't matter all that much in the end. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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checo
Mexico1364 Posts
On February 22 2010 06:08 Zoler wrote: Because they are UGLLYYYYYY LOL? | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
I remember all the youtube comments on korean pro games (if he only made 5 cannons in that base he would have lived), Listen, minimizing static defenses, especially when learning a game is the SMARTEST thing, unless you're terran and can refund bunkers for full value. You want to minimize static defenses. Seriously, the worst noob mistake in SC, is making too many static defenses, it's just an open invitation for the enemy to take bases and macro unharassed. Also SC2 static defenses seem to die pretty darn fast anyway. Okay you over make sunken colonies, they can't move, cost drones. So your opponent just says "lol" expands freely and gains a huge edge. Especially with zerg minimizing sunkens/spores is huge. I think Patton has a word about static defenses or digging in. Even hardcore turtlers like Flash minimize turrets early. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On February 22 2010 06:37 dacthehork wrote: minimizing static defenses, especially when learning a game is the SMARTEST thing Listen to this man. | ||
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Ideas
United States8168 Posts
On February 22 2010 02:31 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: actually zerg can outpump pretty much evryone early on. 2hatch+queen is just sick larva. you dont need sunken walls anymore. pretty much evry single rep ive seen of a decent zerg he could easily fend off any pressure and take mapcontrol till the enemys tech kicks in the mid game starts. yea I've noticed this. early game ZvT has changed so unbelievably drastically in SC2. Zerg no longer need a big sunk wall early game since there are no medics, and then speed lings and banelings seem to really own early game Marine/Marauder forces, so the equivelent of 3hatch (which I think is 2 hatch queen?) seems to have complete map control vs standard T openings that are happening right now. what's really new is how map design must (or well, CAN) change to reflect this. Zerg no longer need a choke in front of nat where 1 small sunken line can happily defend vs early MnM pushes. Now that zerg have ways of spread creep everywhere and sunkens can move, Zerg have much more flexibility in defending chokes with static D than before (even though it seems like they can just make lings/banelings instead and be fine too). | ||
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
Zerg no longer need a big sunk wall early game since there are no medics, and then speed lings and banelings seem to really own early game Marine/Marauder forces, so the equivelent of 3hatch (which I think is 2 hatch queen?) seems to have complete map control vs standard T openings that are happening right now. Some part of me wonders if it is a good idea to forgo map control and just fast tech to ultra since the terran can't really kill you early.... Or, why the hell build an army unless you have to fight with it? Build it later if the fighting comes later. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
They are not static :D | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
semi-static. Unless you are spreading creep across the map to their base and/or dropping ooze to attack with them. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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caution.slip
United States775 Posts
On February 22 2010 06:08 Zoler wrote: Because they are UGLLYYYYYY they are ugly though. Why don't they just keep the original going underground animation. I know people were liek "how can someting with a long tongue underground uproot and walk around" but the long tongue isn't actually underground. If you watch the sunken animation a tongue comes up, curls into the ground, and then pops back up. This is no less believable than a long tongue that magically gets longer? bring back the old animation i say | ||
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zergpower123
United States197 Posts
It seems like sunkens and spores should be utilized more now that they aren't stationary and if you build one on the wrong place, its all good as you can move it. Your army shouldn't be running from base to base. It should be out there in the open to pick off the enemy or to harass. The sunks and spores can be there to help defend the base. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
2 roaches is 290 HP with 2 armor with 32 damage (though you lose half of it when you lose 145 HP) for 150 minerals, 50 gas and 2 larva. Ok, roaches do have significantly less range too (but they can move). And they're both biological/armored, so except vs stuff with building-specific attacks (only reapers?) they take the same bonus damage too. Spine crawlers are only marginally better than roaches (and that much only because they're cheaper) is probably what it comes down to. Except roaches can move--and therefore be useful for map control and offense--and they build much faster. I'm not really seeing the reason to use spine crawlers over roaches just from looking at the stats. Maybe there's an attack speed difference too that makes spine crawlers worth it? Looks to me like they're mainly poorly designed right now though. | ||
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IskatuMesk
Canada969 Posts
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
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ababa
Switzerland17 Posts
Some more ground units >> spine crawler. The spore seems ok against air when not going muta, since we have no scourge anymore. | ||
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