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The way I want it (which obviously is the bets and only right way  ):
- In all games each player is only able to record their own data, unless both players agree otherwise in the lobby
- tournament casters can create server replays that contain all data, but which are enchrypted and only can be replayed on sc2 installations with the right key installed
- it is the tournaments hosts responsibilty to prevent leaks, a question of reputation
- cast replays can be created, from server and from player replays, that only show what the caster/commentator decided to show
- an audiotrack for cast replays would be a nice bonus
- directly creating video files/streams (theora is good for both, and also license free) from cast replays would be a nice bonus too
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Umm... Having the data under fog of war being sent only to the server doesn't necessarily mean that you wouldn't be able to watch replays with full vision of both players.
The simplest solution is that it's not the player's client that's saving the replay but the server that is sending the replay to both participants after the game is over (during the post-battle screen with stats for example, when you have the option to 'save replay').
I really can't see how anyone could vote 'No' on this one or even think that you would be able to save replays with only one player's vision...
Edit: And to the guy above me: In AMM lobby will only be available in the custom games, not ladder.
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United States47024 Posts
A couple ideas against this that haven't been raised:
1) Having fog of war over your opponent makes it impossible for you to track his actions and make sure he isn't hacking. Given that a non-negligible amount of hacking will probably be detected by player-submitted feedback, and not just by automated anti-hacking utilities, this does a lot in making the game more conducive to hacking.
2) It's already the case that replays from pro-games are not released. What you lose from this in pro-games is that you take out the ability of a player to analyze his games mid-series and figure out his opponent. It actually encourages LESS creative play in set games, because a player can run the same cheesy build order 3-5 times, and because the opponent has both never seen it before and doesn't have the chance to look at it after the first game, he can fall to it again. IMO at higher-levels, mid-series replay analysis is important to creating dynamic series games, and has arguably contributed to some of the great series comebacks we've seen.
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United States43350 Posts
Replays are an essential part of the game. There is still a huge amount of strategic depth and metagame going on in bw if you know where to look. It's not at all cookie cutter. Yes, the players at the top all have superb mechanics but when they play against each other the mechanics are equal and not a factor. You can get by vs amateurs by mechanics alone (as we saw when Free apesmashed Garimto's comeback) but strategy is still what wins you starleagues.
I think you have to distinguish between basic strategy shit like build orders which are easy to mimic from a replay and the more advanced stuff.
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bad idea. People forget that nal_ra isnt old school. He became a pro long after replays were out. Boxer was dominant in 1.08 (when replays were out). This concept of replays killing creativity is bogus. More people watching games and being overall better players kills these people's builds. Boxer's shit doesnt work as much because hes using it on televsion and people from all the teams are probably recording/watching it and making a mental note of the stuff he tried. Not to mention people try shit like that all the time in practice im sure. Pro teams and more people playing at a high level which means they can analyze play better makes cute shit not work as much anymore. It has nothing to do with replays.
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United States33503 Posts
nope, boxer needs to be dragged into the future, kicking and screaming if needed ;p
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The old players are full of crap. They can't keep up because it's incredibly hard to stay motivated for so long with such fierce competition.
Not to mention I don't think creativity is getting less at all, just look how incredibly much the game has changed in the last 3 years. Hell last year alone we've seen all kinds of interesting stuff from Flash, Zero, Leta and others.
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On January 30 2010 08:15 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Alright, my last post was a little smart alecky, sorry. But, honestly, why should we get upset that people are learning how to play the game better? There are people worried that SC2 won't have enough macro, and other people worried that SC2 will be too macro oriented because people will learn builds from replays (at least I hope these are two separate groups of people...).
Leagues can keep their reps secret if they want (like kespa) and teams can keep their reps secret, too (like estro). If you don't want people getting your strategies, then you can practice only with people on your team and play others in leagues that only release VODs, like the korean leagues. I really think the game should at least include the option. I think that replays should stick around because they help people ease into the game by copying. No one can reach the top ranks by copying alone, though. All the best players learn to "play by feel" and don't stick to any single build order.
Additionally, this would be terrible for the development of ESPORTS. Real sports haven't been ruined by the lack of fog of war. Look at tennis: there aren't a bunch of crazy strategies for that game - yet it has lasted for over a century. If the game needs crazy strategies to be fun to watch, then the core game is poorly made. Starcraft is still as fun to watch as ever, and we continue to see new styles. The lack of creativity recently shown by map makers is contributing to stagnancy much more than replays. And still, the maps are okay, Flash is starting a new deny-the-third TvZ movement, zergs are two basing more than just a few months ago, Jangbi came up with a fast 3 base strat on Neo Moon Glaive, etc. The ratings for the last OSL final were great. Starcraft is not sick. Boxer is wistful for the past he dominated, but it isn't coming back. The best players will have to be able to macro and micro and think on the fly and be creative instead of just a few of those things. I think creative players should have fun with SC2, but we should be able to learn from that and see how smart those plays really are by dissecting them in replays.
But its not like you can view a replay of a tennis match, slow it down and copy exactly how to move your arms from every possible angle. Or you cant see how the other person is reacting to something another player is doing. In Tennis VODS, you can only see what the camera is showing. You cant zoom in to the player's face or anything.
but I knida agree with people above me for the most part. There is still creativity in today's games. I havent seena game where its completely cookie cutter from early to mid to late game in a while. I think the only reason people think things were more strategic back then was because the number of games broadcasted back then was very very low, so you didnt get to see as much, but I bet there were cookie cutter builds back then too, its just that no one ever really saw them.
However, I agree Professional games' replays shouldnt be saved at all.
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the old progamers went down because they couldn't adapt, (and maybe because they couldn't keep up mechanically with newer ones)
mechanics won't be as demanding in SC2 though, which should help some. less mechanical demand should mean mechanics will be less of a cause of a pro-gamer falling from grace from handspeed slowing down due to age
regarding copying strats from replays, I think the best ones will adapt, and if you fail to adapt you don't really deserve to be at the top any longer compared to someone who can adapt
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Even if this was a good idea, which it isn't, it would be a waste of time to implement since it will be easily undone by 3rd party programs.
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United States7166 Posts
You guys have been making a lot of good points, and after thinking about this for some time I've come to realize the flaws in some of the reasoning and am no longer confident this idea is the right solution, and if one is even necessary at all.
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lol at this poll. This can only happen in the world of gaming. So people are seriously saying that we should keep strategies, via replays, secret so that some players can feel they are special a bit longer before their ass is discovered?
LOOOOL
what next, you want copyrights of your strategies and sue people using them?
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Those of you saying replays should hide data- how much of a build do you realistically think that would hide? All you really do is slow down the rate at which imbalances and bugs are identified, making for a much worse game as well as destroying it as a spectator.
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On February 03 2010 07:33 ix wrote:
Those of you saying replays should hide data- how much of a build do you realistically think that would hide? All you really do is slow down the rate at which imbalances and bugs are identified, making for a much worse game as well as destroying it as a spectator.
this
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taking other people's strategies is a part of every single competitive game and there's basically nothing that can be done about it within the realm of reason. I've been at least semi-competitive about magic and smash bros: melee and have observed the same sort of thing in both of those communities.
magic players will use each others decks the tourney after they have a good performance.
smash players will copy the tech skill and strategies seen from watching other smashers.
it's just how competition works. you see someone else do something impressive or cool or effective, and you'll naturally be drawn to figuring out how to do it and whether you should incorporate it into your game. this leads to everyone getting better and eventually as new viable strategies become more and more difficult to devise, the competitive scene favors those with better mechanics/technique/decision making/whatever over those who have creativity. sucks for the creative people out there, but it's the natural evolution of competitive games so I really doubt blizzard would waste their time on the huge pain in the ass of a feature that is finding out how to hide your opponents actions (without impacting what he's doing) from you in the replay.
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This is a highly debatable topic. The same problem exists for Magic: The Gathering with "netdecks". Basically the top tier decks are available to the public to see and everyone copies them... and the innovation lies around beating those decks (as opposed to thinking outside the box and making a brand new one) and it really frustrates a lot of people, especially casual players. In any case, it would be extremely hard to actually protect the replays and the builds.
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Netdecking is inevitable and, if the game has a functioning metagame, which recent Magic Standard seems to have, isn't the be all and end all, the skill lies in the choice of deck/strategy and the execution. How long do you think lists would remain secret if they weren't published? Anyone who has played a novel deck could tell you 40-50 of the cards right away. There is still room for deck innovation, it's just really hard as with Starcraft innovation because the strategic space has been heavily explored and is well understood. This is inevitable and unavoidable, retarding progress toward this state doesn't make the game deeper, it just means your cheese build works for a little longer and average players are terrible, infact for everyone but the elite the game becomes far worse as there is no sanely established metagame and things are mostly just a mess of safety vs cheese.
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Please don't compare SC to a game with a high element of chance.
Why would you want to ruin a spectators fun? Competition is much more fierce with replays, those with the passion and dedication to win, will.
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I think it's good the way SC has become. When both players are using 'near-perfect' builds and strategies, it just makes it even more difficult to guess who will win, so it's more exciting! Also, I love seeing just how far people can really push this game. Like flash with his gas pre-loaded SCVs after super-fast CC. New shit still happens in StarCraft yo! I love when someone like jaedong or flash is so damn good at starcraft it creates this aura of like "jee how long can this guy go for? who will knock him down?!" it's really exciting 
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Awful idea. Replays are the single best tool to help new players and even veterans find holes, flaws in their strategy, and improve on them. You can see what you did wrong, why your efforts didn't work, and what you can do different next time.
And come on, there's a huge difference between viewing a build order on a replay and executing flawlessly. Starcraft is more than mindlessly memorizing build orders and always will be. Creativity has died down in this game because its 10-11 years old and most of the best strategies for the average player have already been discovered, and there isn't much more to know about the game even at a high level.
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EPT
