EPTProtecting replays with the fog of war - Page 4
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9105 Posts
On January 30 2010 15:30 SerpentFlame wrote: ![[image loading]](http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/122/convenience.jpg) Saying you think replays should be included in starcraft 2 is not the same as claiming you know more about starcraft just because progamers dislike replays. Wanting/not wanting replays doesn't necessarily have a right/wrong answer. It just depends how you look at things and if you think the overall positives outweigh the negatives. It's not an absolute like the fact that all terran players are camping noobs. Btw I really do wonder if pros know more about sc or not. Like I would LOVE to see some interviews where a few known pros are asked about the campaign story, that'd be awesome to see if they have a clue or not. I bet they wouldn't. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
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MasterOfChaos
Germany2896 Posts
And personally I think making this decision is about as bad as their decision to ban LAN. | ||
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theconartist
62 Posts
Don't let them fool you into thinking that they can't be creative because of replays. They can't be creative because they aren't good enough to pull off creative builds. Even if they were at the same level as progamers today there simply isn't an infinite number of feasible strategies in starcraft. But does there need to be? There are already tons of really unique builds and we still see new ones every now and then. And alot of times when we do see these knew creative strategies they aren't boxer style all in cheeses. They are solid adaptable strategies like the fantasy build; where you can do it 100 games in a row and it will work every time. It doesn't matter if your enemy knows you're doing it, because it's an adaptable build and has reliable mechanics to it. Fantasy doesn't give a fuck if everyone has seen 1000 replays of that build because it will work anyway. That's is a motherfucking strategy. That's what pisses me off about this and makes Boxer and the others look like the dipshits(in regards to this subject) they are. The argument isn't about preventing people from analyzing the strategy you came up with last week using replays and preparing a counter to it before you can use it again. At a competitive level any of the players know enough about the game to be able to understand the build and prepare a counter for it without a replay simply by using their fucking brain for a few minutes. What it comes down to is that they want to retard the rate at which players learn the game so they don't get left in the dust by newer players that are smarter and faster than they are. You could eliminate replays right now and Flash and Jaedong would still rape the shit out of any of these old school progamers in their prime and any cute little cheeses they come up with because via a combination of being smart and/or faster they are simply better players. They can deal with every situations because they are good thinkers and can prepare for the possibilities of what you are doing and react with scouting and build order, not because they knew ahead of time what you were doing. All limiting replays would do is slow the learning rate of the players, and that is not the solution. If you want more unique strategies you need to [add/change] [units/mechanics] in the game, and that's all there is to it. | ||
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Appendix
Sweden979 Posts
If e-sports is to be taken seriously it is necessary to reach as high level as possible as fast as possible, and not allow for gimmicky play to be rewarding for a longer period of time. | ||
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yumy
Germany17 Posts
but thats just me. meh. | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
On January 30 2010 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: I think (just like last thread) that it's a really, really, really bad idea. Replays didn't kill creativity - people just got too fucking good for random bullshit to work. Yeah, replays sped that process up but it would have happened anyway. Much more important is the fact that watching a replay is FUN, and this way it wouldn't be. I mean, don't you download replays from TL or other sites? Would it really be nearly as fun to watch them, if you could only see one player...? This is how I feel. It is difficult to argue against the fun factor because you cannot change viewing pleasure with arguments. I want to see both players, which will give me the most satisfaction. If I am forced to only watch one player, then it won't be nearly as much fun watching replays as it ought to be. Thus I think it is a horrible idea to tamper with replays in your suggested fashion.  | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
if there are progamers who would wish to release their replays to teach the community im all for it since it helps people to learn better | ||
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Flyingdutchman
Netherlands858 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7926 Posts
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LF9
United States537 Posts
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Craton
United States17274 Posts
I vehemently hope Blizzard ignores this idea. Btw I really do wonder if pros know more about sc or not. Like I would LOVE to see some interviews where a few known pros are asked about the campaign story, that'd be awesome to see if they have a clue or not. I bet they wouldn't. I'm not sure there's even a completely localized version of the campaign available in korean. | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
On January 30 2010 08:58 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: [If you want creative builds, you should pray that replays remain open and that players follow them rote like you fear, because that kind of play is what opens the door to creative builds meant to snipe that kind of robotism. This is an important point. 'Standard' play actually encourages creative counters. If you knew exactly what your opponent was doing, you could respond with a build that exploits its weaknesses. That will continue to add interesting innovations to the game long after the builds have been technically perfected: see Jaedong's 3 hatch before pool vs terran fast expand. Replays allow the community to have access to strategies sooner, both amateur and professional communities. But if they then become 'standard', new counters will arise and the cycle will continue. I believe replays actually foster more creativity and speed up the evolution of the meta game rather than the opposite. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Implementing this idea would be disastrous however. It would take away the ability of players to think for themselves and would force them towards 'guides', and the wisdom of forums dedicated to game strategy. If you can't look at the replay and learn what you did wrong, that's like a giant sign of "we don't care about you, love, Blizzard". I think that if you accept the central idea that innovation has some sort of copyright, where the person who thought of it should get some sort of prolonged benefit for some yet to be determined amount of time then there are betters ways to implement it. I don´t accept this, though. If e-sports for starcraft II is to be like an actual sport, you want to see the best players using the most advanced plays. Imagine watching a final between two players where you know the zerg will lose because he isn't aware of the new counter to his game plan by his terran opponent. Any intermediate approach where the other player is allowed to know something, but not everything is so random as well. Just let him watch all the games by replay/videostream and let him think of a counter, it's more fair that way. Some of the people being in favor of this idea must have this totally warped notion of their own importance, and must completely obsess about the health of e-sports. Content to associate with the elitist culture of korean pro-gaming, as opposed to having a fun game to play, seriously. o.o | ||
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torm3ntin
Brazil2534 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
If Blizzard were to do a really good job in map pools, balance, and new expansion units I believe SC2 would be more strategically diverse and complicated than SC1 by far. Better replay analysis can only help this process. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
Even if the opponent's base isn't visible, progamers would be able to reverse engineer and guess the build just by looking at the timing. In his casts Day[9] is always pointing out subtleties of the build orders even if he hasn't been looking at the base, so any progamer would have no problem doing it. If they're really interested in using the build, then they'd spend a bit of time perfecting it on their own, which would be the case whether or not they knew the build order from the replay. So if someone is actually intent on copying a build it wouldn't take very long whether or not they can see the base. It would only stop new players who need the cookie cutter formulas to do the build and aren't able to optimize the build themselves. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
Many support garimto's opinion because they think that the reason we see less strategic plays is because players become immune to them once they are used because of replays, and thats partially correct. But trying to prevent people from studying and getting prepared against all in strats is lame. The main reason why old programmers retire is because they are competing with passionate kids that are willing to sacrifice much more than them in order to stay at the top. Innovation can still happen, and in SC2 it will be much easier to create tricky things with all the APM freed up. On the end of the day, fog of war wouldnt make a difference, people will always be able to crack builds, and high level solid strats will always be something that is really well defended against all kinds of cheese, once a player uses once cheese, everyone will adapt defending that into their build and so on. Thats how we got where we are, and thats how SC2 will work as well. You are only delaying the sun from rising. Let the old time pros whine as much as they want, it wont make em right. | ||
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