EPT
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Back during TSL1, in Legionnaire's interview he said :
Q: Right now, give us your thoughts on gameplay. You said everyone got better fast. However, one might also argue that 'creative play' has suffered because of this.
A: Agreed. Of course the game always evolves (Stork / Bisu style PvZ etc), but I never would have thought it was possible when I was playing. I think replays killed creativity more than anything else, as it made everyone improve and learn faster than they would have normally.
Q: Right now, give us your thoughts on gameplay. You said everyone got better fast. However, one might also argue that 'creative play' has suffered because of this.
A: Agreed. Of course the game always evolves (Stork / Bisu style PvZ etc), but I never would have thought it was possible when I was playing. I think replays killed creativity more than anything else, as it made everyone improve and learn faster than they would have normally.
And everyone remembers Boxer's depressing interview last month:
[Interview] Boxer on eSports’ past & future 12/14:
Replay is a big problem too. The retirement of old progamers was influenced by replay. Even when Nal_rA and others pulled off an interesting strategy, copying it a day or two after is possible because of replay. As the old progamers went down, fans left. More effort was needed to hold them, but such effort is insufficient nowadays.
Replay is a big problem too. The retirement of old progamers was influenced by replay. Even when Nal_rA and others pulled off an interesting strategy, copying it a day or two after is possible because of replay. As the old progamers went down, fans left. More effort was needed to hold them, but such effort is insufficient nowadays.
"The retirement of old progamers was influenced by replays."
Just think about that for a minute.
I remember hearing this from other old progamers confirming it as well, one of the protosses was very passionate about it (was it Garimto?).
This is the sad truth of Starcraft. Replays make it easy for anyone to copy good/creative builds exactly. It detracts from the strategical/creative element of the game, and promotes cookie-cutter builds with players focusing mostly on mechanics. If you couldn't see your opponent during the game, why should you be able to study everything after? I strongly believe something should be done about this for Starcraft 2 before it takes the same path.
Please note of course build orders and strategies will still get out there, but players who come up with really great builds could keep the intricacies and timings hidden if they wished, so other people couldn't just copy it so easily
--- My idea is to allow players to have an option to prevent opponents from having vision of them when their opponents watch a replay (basically a fog of war for replays). That way they can still examine their own play, and friends can still enjoy what happened in the game, but the enemy builds cannot be studied and analyzed.
*** Please understand and think about how educational and enjoyable replays still are with fog of war on (if you've never done this, go to Allies screen in replay and turn off vision of one player). Everything that interacts between players will be seen anyway. timings of all attacks/pushes etc learned, but base management/economy details will be hidden. perhaps some statistics included in replays could help with this, such as resource gathering rates.
To implement this idea so that it could not be circumvented with hacks, replay data must be kept and handled by the server, and not streamed to players during the game like it is for SC1. So after the game, to save replay it would download from the server (or auto-download/save would be a nice feature). Thus the server would need to create multiple replay files for the same game. For each player who has this option enabled, there would need to be a replay without data of his units (unless they're in the opponent's vision radius).
This method could also be used to make maphacking virtually impossible by not sending any enemy data inside the fog of war to the client, meaning the server would handle the data (this is how Heroes of Newerth does it, and it works). Note that you could do this regardless of my idea though. This means that the games need to be hosted by Blizzard's servers rather than the players, which I expect to already be planned this way, at least for ladder games. (I think WC3 Bnet ladder games are hosted by servers).
Of course special permission for Blizzard admins / tourney admins /etc could be given to let them download replays that have complete vision if necessary.
And there will still be things like VODs/observers of course, but we all know how different VODs are from replays, in terms of what you can learn (that goes for observers as well in a sense).
Poll: Is this a good idea?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Yes, but some changes needed
Before you vote No because you think it takes the fun out of watching replays, please scroll to the post with the blue text at the bottom of this page as my response to this argument.
In closing, I'd like to quote Garimto's interview:
[Interview] Garimto and his thoughts on SC2
- When Starcraft 2 is released, do you intend to return as a progamer?
▲ When Starcraft first came out, the older players did better initially. It's the very same reason why Boxer hyung rose to success and domination - using strategies and builds people never thought of. And as time passed, all the cons were removed and only the good stuff kept coming in, which is why the younger players perform better because their reaction time and speed is faster. But when a game is released, the one who can create the best and most efficient build and strategies can dominate the scene early on. Because of this, I think I have a possibility, which is why I intend to return to progaming when Starcraft 2 is released. And I am not alone either, for many other retired Starcraft progamers share the same sentiments. Starcraft is tough for us, but I believe I have an equal chance at succeeding in Starcraft 2.
- When Starcraft 2 is released, do you intend to return as a progamer?
▲ When Starcraft first came out, the older players did better initially. It's the very same reason why Boxer hyung rose to success and domination - using strategies and builds people never thought of. And as time passed, all the cons were removed and only the good stuff kept coming in, which is why the younger players perform better because their reaction time and speed is faster. But when a game is released, the one who can create the best and most efficient build and strategies can dominate the scene early on. Because of this, I think I have a possibility, which is why I intend to return to progaming when Starcraft 2 is released. And I am not alone either, for many other retired Starcraft progamers share the same sentiments. Starcraft is tough for us, but I believe I have an equal chance at succeeding in Starcraft 2.
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Counter-arguments:
Argument I. This would take a great deal of fun and enjoyment out of watching replays.
Response I. It's not as bad as you might expect. Lets take an example from SC1. Lets say you're watching a PvT, where the terran is doing some sort of fast expand and the protoss is going for a fast reaver build. I'd argue that watching the game from one player's perspective is more exciting, interesting, and engaging than having vision revealed for both. If vision is completely revealed, you see both when the robotics goes up, up until the exact timing of the shuttle flying in, as well as the entire defense of terran and how he's going to be able to deal with it. Whereas if you are say watching the protoss, you're in the dark about terran's defenses and cannot easily predict the outcome. If you're watching from the terran's PoV then the shuttle flying in will (probably) be an unexpected surprise, depending on his scouting. And you may not know what's inside either.
In any example, when you're watching from 1 player's perspective, you see what he sees, and how he reacts. You get a good look into his thought processes and it becomes a more engaging and interesting experience. Furthermore, all the action will always be between both players so it should be in the vision regardless of who you're watching. The good part is that you cannot always see it coming a mile away either.
This is assuming the player enabled the option. I assume many players won't care to protect their replays.
However I concede it is nice to be able to switch between perspectives or glance at the other player when you're curious about something. Also note that you can turn fog of war on even without this option being added anyway of course. But once again, my point is that it's not as big of a deal as you might have thought.
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I was going to add more but I realized this may all have been pointless. Why would Blizzard do this? Seems very unlikely they'd go for it, it's probably never been considered and it's not something they'd understand anyway. Testimony? Look how split the community here is. I'm feeling under the weather and I'm wondering what the hell am I wasting my time on this for, and wasting other people's time as well
