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United States7166 Posts
On January 30 2010 08:03 tedster wrote:
This might come as a news flash to some people, but it isn't replays that promote cookie-cutter gameplay. It's the desire to win. In ANY game where there are more efficient strategies, players will gravitate towards them as quickly as possible - and this is a good thing.
It is the responsibility of the game designers to reward multiple viable strategies - including high-risk, high-reward strategies (like cheese and timing attacks in BW) to ensure the game is rounded enough to support this natural convergence.
Cutting out replays is beyond stupid because it artificially makes the game more difficult to learn, understand, and observe. I don't care how creative your barracks-before-depot build is if I can't fucking see it and understand it - and if it's good, it's going to be discovered eventually anyway. I understand the frustration of being a great player and losing out to the newer, mechanically driven stars, but to intentionally dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community is selfish and stupid and comes from players wishing to maintain an edge without having to put in the same practice time as other players.
What is this I don't even
Do I need to seriously respond to this post?
"I don't care how creative your barracks-before-depot build is if I can't fucking see it and understand it"
Oh, I think you'll be seeing, or should I say experiencing the barracks-before-depot build just fine, if you know what I mean. LOL why do you need to "fucking see it and understand it" completely? can't you study the timing of when it comes and figure out the counter yourself? or did you mean you want to "fucking copy it"
what a joke, seriously you people are ruining my thread
"but to intentionally dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community is selfish and stupid and comes from players wishing to maintain an edge without having to put in the same practice time as other players."
i like how analyzing your every opponent's action, timing, and build order is equivalent to "dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community." Imagine if there was no fog of war in SC1, players in games always had vision of the entire map. Then if SC2 was coming out and I suggested fog of war IN-GAME, would you say it's "dumbing down the overall knowledge level of the entire community" as well? This is slightly unfair comparison but the point should be clear enough
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On January 30 2010 07:32 ploy wrote:
What a worthwhile post, Boblion. As if seeing a broadcasted game or VOD is even comparable with watching a replay in terms of copying build orders/strategies. Go away.
Then again, only a few starcraft legends think replays hurt the game....what do they know, right?
Because you think that the replays of the pros are often leaked ?
People watch the pros trying a new strat on TV then top foreigners and top Kor amateurs try to do the same things and THEN the average noobie can get their replays.
Pros get copied by people watching Vods.
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United States7166 Posts
how does this have anything to do with my idea boblion? I've addressed this already, of course builds will still be figured out and copied but not as easily and completely. it would greatly slow the process
and btw this still does not explain the god awful post you made that he is referring to
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I think even having the option is a bad idea because it will split players into both camps and make it harder to match up. Blizzard can block the map hacking by not distributing replay data until the end of the match regardless of whether the replays are fogged. I don't think players are entitled to the secrecy of builds they use against me. Even in OSL/MSL people get to look at the replay to see what they lost from. How are players supposed to improve if they can't even figure out what they were up against? This will just encourage enclaves of good players tucked away in team houses while people trying to improve by themselves might not even learn to correlating scouting info with certain builds because they won't be able to determine for sure how many gates or facs or whatever they are up against without complex math. Security through obscurity doesn't work, it just limits the amount of people who learn to those with special knowledge and connections. It would probably allow for much more hacking, too. Blizzard hasn't been able to prevent all hacking in WoW even though it is through a central server. With replays, TSL admins can prove certain people are cheating but with no replay, we will never know if certain people are cheating. We will always be worried that Blizzard is missing certain exploits. Look at the recent SC patch debacle when certain pauses were put in the code for no good reason - one of TL's coders (Rich, I think) figured out the problem and a fix very quickly. And the community has always been ahead of Blizzard in anti-hack. Map hack might be fixed but many have correctly noted that you still have to be decent to win with map hack - other hacks that would be made easier to hide due to no replay would be even more egregious than map hack.
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On January 30 2010 08:18 Zelniq wrote:
Do I need to seriously respond to this post?
"I don't care how creative your barracks-before-depot build is if I can't fucking see it and understand it"
Oh, I think you'll be seeing, or should I say experiencing the barracks-before-depot build just fine, if you know what I mean. LOL why do you need to "fucking see it and understand it" completely? can't you study the timing of when it comes and figure out the counter yourself? or did you mean you want to "fucking copy it"
Please calm down and respond seriously.
Look at aggressive TvZ in SC - the zerg doesn't have the units to spare to send a drones all over the map looking for exactly how the build works. That will mean that they lose just to find out how they lost... These early aggression builds that people tend to interpret as more creative than more complicated and creative macro builds often cannot be scouted unless a worker is sent out unreasonably early.
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United States7166 Posts
On January 30 2010 08:26 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I think even having the option is a bad idea because it will split players into both camps and make it harder to match up. Blizzard can block the map hacking by not distributing replay data until the end of the match regardless of whether the replays are fogged. I don't think players are entitled to the secrecy of builds they use against me. Even in OSL/MSL people get to look at the replay to see what they lost from. How are players supposed to improve if they can't even figure out what they were up against? This will just encourage enclaves of good players tucked away in team houses while people trying to improve by themselves might not even learn to correlating scouting info with certain builds because they won't be able to determine for sure how many gates or facs or whatever they are up against without complex math. Security through obscurity doesn't work, it just limits the amount of people who learn to those with special knowledge and connections. It would probably allow for much more hacking, too. Blizzard hasn't been able to prevent all hacking in WoW even though it is through a central server. With replays, TSL admins can prove certain people are cheating but with no replay, we will never know if certain people are cheating. We will always be worried that Blizzard is missing certain exploits. Look at the recent SC patch debacle when certain pauses were put in the code for no good reason - one of TL's coders (Rich, I think) figured out the problem and a fix very quickly. And the community has always been ahead of Blizzard in anti-hack. Map hack might be fixed but many have correctly noted that you still have to be decent to win with map hack - other hacks that would be made easier to hide due to no replay would be even more egregious than map hack.
But you can still learn a lot from looking at just your own vision, can't you? is it not enough? think about it, they can still knew enough of what they were up against, it's not like the loss is ever a surprise to a player, you can still see whenever he comes into your vision and analyze all of your own mistakes, timings, etc. though I suppose things like hidden expansions would be hard to figure out, perhaps resource gathering rates could be a stat included in every replay or something.
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On January 30 2010 08:18 Zelniq wrote:
"but to intentionally dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community is selfish and stupid and comes from players wishing to maintain an edge without having to put in the same practice time as other players."
i like how analyzing your every opponent's action, timing, and build order is equivalent to "dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community." Imagine if there was no fog of war in SC1, players in games always had vision of the entire map. Then if SC2 was coming out and I suggested fog of war IN-GAME, would you say it's "dumbing down the overall knowledge level of the entire community" as well? This is slightly unfair comparison but the point should be clear enough
It is a completely unfair comparison. The point of fog of war is to make the collection of intelligence part of the strategy players must consider. The point of attaching DRM to build orders is to maintain the advantage of the monopoly on knowledge held by a few players, even after they put that knowledge into practice. Teams should be able to learn from other teams - bball teams shouldn't be stopped from running the Princeton offense just because someone else ran it first.
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United States7166 Posts
On January 30 2010 08:30 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:18 Zelniq wrote:
Do I need to seriously respond to this post?
"I don't care how creative your barracks-before-depot build is if I can't fucking see it and understand it"
Oh, I think you'll be seeing, or should I say experiencing the barracks-before-depot build just fine, if you know what I mean. LOL why do you need to "fucking see it and understand it" completely? can't you study the timing of when it comes and figure out the counter yourself? or did you mean you want to "fucking copy it"
Please calm down and respond seriously. Look at aggressive TvZ in SC - the zerg doesn't have the units to spare to send a drones all over the map looking for exactly how the build works. That will mean that they lose just to find out how they lost... These early aggression builds that people tend to interpret as more creative than more complicated and creative macro builds often cannot be scouted unless a worker is sent out unreasonably early.
lets say you DO have vision and you find his proxy raxes. so what are you going to do? you still need to find some way to defend it in time, yet you can do that exact same thing with just your own vision. everything that kills you will be in your vision. all attacks, etc. you dont need to send out workers unreasonably early all over the map to figure out the build, you dont need that knowledge
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On January 30 2010 08:25 Zelniq wrote:
how does this have anything to do with my idea boblion? I've addressed this already, of course builds will still be figured out and copied but not as easily and completely. it would greatly slow the process
It won't slow anything because the players who are the first to copy pros ( Top amateur Kors or top foreigners ) are already used to copy build orders from VODs. Who cares if joe2456 from East who is C- on iccup can't get replays anymore. Wait he will still get replays of his favourite foreigners from gg.net and copy their builds. The only thing which will change is that he won't be able to see what the other guy is doing. But guess what joe2456 won't go to the OSL final so i doubt people care.
On January 30 2010 08:25 Zelniq wrote:
and btw this still does not explain the god awful post you made that he is referring to
The only thing awful in this thread is your idea.
Look at others sports or chess.
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United States7166 Posts
On January 30 2010 08:36 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:18 Zelniq wrote:
"but to intentionally dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community is selfish and stupid and comes from players wishing to maintain an edge without having to put in the same practice time as other players."
i like how analyzing your every opponent's action, timing, and build order is equivalent to "dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community." Imagine if there was no fog of war in SC1, players in games always had vision of the entire map. Then if SC2 was coming out and I suggested fog of war IN-GAME, would you say it's "dumbing down the overall knowledge level of the entire community" as well? This is slightly unfair comparison but the point should be clear enough
It is a completely unfair comparison. The point of fog of war is to make the collection of intelligence part of the strategy players must consider. The point of attaching DRM to build orders is to maintain the advantage of the monopoly on knowledge held by a few players, even after they put that knowledge into practice. Teams should be able to learn from other teams - bball teams shouldn't be stopped from running the Princeton offense just because someone else ran it first.
that's what im trying to say. i'm not saying to remove replays completely, i'm arguing that you can still learn enough from watching your side of the replay. and no the point of "attaching Digital Rights Management to build orders" is not to maintain a monopoly of knowledge held by a few players, but to discourage incessant, thoughtless build-order copying and to discourage players from relying mostly on just their mechanics and how well they can execute builds.
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On January 30 2010 08:31 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:26 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I think even having the option is a bad idea because it will split players into both camps and make it harder to match up. Blizzard can block the map hacking by not distributing replay data until the end of the match regardless of whether the replays are fogged. I don't think players are entitled to the secrecy of builds they use against me. Even in OSL/MSL people get to look at the replay to see what they lost from. How are players supposed to improve if they can't even figure out what they were up against? This will just encourage enclaves of good players tucked away in team houses while people trying to improve by themselves might not even learn to correlating scouting info with certain builds because they won't be able to determine for sure how many gates or facs or whatever they are up against without complex math. Security through obscurity doesn't work, it just limits the amount of people who learn to those with special knowledge and connections. It would probably allow for much more hacking, too. Blizzard hasn't been able to prevent all hacking in WoW even though it is through a central server. With replays, TSL admins can prove certain people are cheating but with no replay, we will never know if certain people are cheating. We will always be worried that Blizzard is missing certain exploits. Look at the recent SC patch debacle when certain pauses were put in the code for no good reason - one of TL's coders (Rich, I think) figured out the problem and a fix very quickly. And the community has always been ahead of Blizzard in anti-hack. Map hack might be fixed but many have correctly noted that you still have to be decent to win with map hack - other hacks that would be made easier to hide due to no replay would be even more egregious than map hack. But you can still learn a lot from looking at just your own vision, can't you? is it not enough? think about it, they can still knew enough of what they were up against, it's not like the loss is ever a surprise to a player, you can still see whenever he comes into your vision and analyze all of your own mistakes, timings, etc. though I suppose things like hidden expansions would be hard to figure out, perhaps resource gathering rates could be a stat included in every replay or something.
No, I can't learn a lot just from looking at my own vision. Maybe C level and above players can, but noobs like me can't learn shit if fog of war is around. And C-level players are probably 1% of all people who've played starcraft. It's not just hidden expansions but order of building placement, number of unit production buildings, etc. All of those could lead to a result that is damn hard to determine without seeing what is going on. Incredibly hard if the other player is good at denying scouts. Additionally, there would be far fewer C level players without replay. C-level players might be able to know "this number of units means fake double, this number means real double" but the progress of that information to common knowledge would be way harder without replays. The way games are is that certain strategies are "standard" and thus good in all sorts of situations. Other are "cheesy" in that they usually work only if they aren't understood in advance. So limiting the diffusion of knowledge will indeed allow more unstrategic strategies to be viable for longer, but not much longer if VODs are still available. And I'm not convinced that we would have more fun if starleague finals still consisted of 3 bunker rush wins rather than 5 long "standard" "uncreative" macro games. Part of the fun of creative builds is that they might only work once: replays didn't stop GGPlay from winning on Monty Hall, Fantasy from beating Stork on Plasma, Boxer from doing that crazy m&m tvt with proxy depots, or any other number of the creative builds that continue to appear on new maps. I think the biggest change if replays are fogged are that more players will stop appreciating cheese / creative builds and the balance will shift farther towards people getting even more pissed when they lose to them because now they can't even see wtf happened to be better prepared to not lose to it again.
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United States7166 Posts
On January 30 2010 08:39 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:25 Zelniq wrote:
how does this have anything to do with my idea boblion? I've addressed this already, of course builds will still be figured out and copied but not as easily and completely. it would greatly slow the process
It won't slow anything because the players who are the first to copy pros ( Top amateur Kors or top foreigners ) are already used to copy build orders from VODs. Who cares if joe2456 from East who is C- on iccup can't get replays anymore. Wait he will still get replays of his favourite foreigners from gg.net and copy their builds. The only thing which will change is that he won't be able to see what the other guy is doing. But guess what joe2456 won't go to the OSL final so i doubt people care.
this is a valid point in that you can often copy the general build order idea or figure it out/fill in the holes by watching VODs, but televised VODs are still way less common than replays and it would definitely slow down the copying of build orders. i'm not entirely sure what your joe2456 example meant, do you mean he can get replays who dont turn this option on? yes that is true so the people that dont care can be copied sure, but those who do care will be much harder to copy.
Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:25 Zelniq wrote:
and btw this still does not explain the god awful post you made that he is referring to The only thing awful in this thread is your idea. Look at others sports or chess.
well there's no fog of war in chess so I don't see how that applies. and there's no fog of war in sports either afaik!
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United States7166 Posts
On January 30 2010 08:48 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
wall of text
a good point about the newbie's perspective. 99% of the players will fall in this category even after the game has been out for some time. although a large percent of those newbies won't even really make any use out of vision of their opponents in replays even if it was available. so really you're only talking about newbies who understand the game well enough to make sense out of what the opponent's doing to win and what to do to stop it.
Additionally, newbies will theoretically and hopefully be playing other newbies, which means they probably won't even enable that option anyway. what do they care if someone sees them in replays? there are things that could be done to prevent this from being a problem, to help newbies out in general, etc. my idea isn't like some final version, it's just an idea and probably needs changing.
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On January 30 2010 08:42 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:36 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On January 30 2010 08:18 Zelniq wrote:
"but to intentionally dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community is selfish and stupid and comes from players wishing to maintain an edge without having to put in the same practice time as other players."
i like how analyzing your every opponent's action, timing, and build order is equivalent to "dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community." Imagine if there was no fog of war in SC1, players in games always had vision of the entire map. Then if SC2 was coming out and I suggested fog of war IN-GAME, would you say it's "dumbing down the overall knowledge level of the entire community" as well? This is slightly unfair comparison but the point should be clear enough
It is a completely unfair comparison. The point of fog of war is to make the collection of intelligence part of the strategy players must consider. The point of attaching DRM to build orders is to maintain the advantage of the monopoly on knowledge held by a few players, even after they put that knowledge into practice. Teams should be able to learn from other teams - bball teams shouldn't be stopped from running the Princeton offense just because someone else ran it first. that's what im trying to say. i'm not saying to remove replays completely, i'm arguing that you can still learn enough from watching your side of the replay. and no the point of "attaching Digital Rights Management to build orders" is not to maintain a monopoly of knowledge held by a few players, but to discourage incessant, thoughtless build-order copying and to discourage players from relying mostly on just their mechanics and how well they can execute builds.
I really think this build-order copying is a myth. Every build has weak points if scouting isn't used to respond to opponents and change if necessary. If you want creative builds, you should pray that replays remain open and that players follow them rote like you fear, because that kind of play is what opens the door to creative builds meant to snipe that kind of robotism. Flash is no robot - if you look closely, he is constantly changing things based on what he sees. Idra is no robot either, he knows to scout before putting down the nat cc, for instance. It is true that learning mechanics / build orders is more efficient / effective in starcraft than learning more "creative" things until you are really good at mechanics. But this has been a strength of Starcraft as an esport relative to, say, WC3 or Command and Conquer games. And, SC2 might make creativity more viable. So I think we should at least wait till beta testing before we decide that SC2 will be less friendly to creative players than SC1 (which I maintain has been and continues to be friendly to creative players). I don't think shifting things too far in the "creative" direction is that great, though. The value of creativity is partly dependent on the fact that many things are not viable. Look at  TurN's recent builds, for instance. They might be exciting, but part of the Terran style springs from the fact that such aggressive builds have a small window of working. If anything goes for any of the races, they might blend together. Additionally, Protosses tended to suck in the early age of starcraft. Now that the game has been figured out more, the three races seem a lot more equal in terms of success. Without replays, strategies take longer to disperse and Blizzard might end up making balance changes that are unnecessary and even harmful because an existent response doesn't get passed around.
wasted my 4000th post on arguing, how fitting 
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On January 30 2010 08:42 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:36 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On January 30 2010 08:18 Zelniq wrote:
"but to intentionally dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community is selfish and stupid and comes from players wishing to maintain an edge without having to put in the same practice time as other players."
i like how analyzing your every opponent's action, timing, and build order is equivalent to "dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community." Imagine if there was no fog of war in SC1, players in games always had vision of the entire map. Then if SC2 was coming out and I suggested fog of war IN-GAME, would you say it's "dumbing down the overall knowledge level of the entire community" as well? This is slightly unfair comparison but the point should be clear enough
It is a completely unfair comparison. The point of fog of war is to make the collection of intelligence part of the strategy players must consider. The point of attaching DRM to build orders is to maintain the advantage of the monopoly on knowledge held by a few players, even after they put that knowledge into practice. Teams should be able to learn from other teams - bball teams shouldn't be stopped from running the Princeton offense just because someone else ran it first. that's what im trying to say. i'm not saying to remove replays completely, i'm arguing that you can still learn enough from watching your side of the replay. and no the point of "attaching Digital Rights Management to build orders" is not to maintain a monopoly of knowledge held by a few players, but to discourage incessant, thoughtless build-order copying and to discourage players from relying mostly on just their mechanics and how well they can execute builds.
I think the Boxer quote supports the idea that players like Boxer should be able to maintain their monopoly on knowledge of how to execute certain builds in order to further their success past where it would go if their builds were fully understood. It is the necessary corollary to preventing build-order copying. When you prevent build-order copying by fogged replays you also prevent creative players of other races from analyzing Boxer-type builds in order to craft new responses. You also prevent creative players of the same race from evolving the ideas further or working the new ideas into older strategies.
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United States7166 Posts
well I'd like to argue that your reasoning for Flash/idra/etc not being robots is invalid. (not that I think they're robots!! i dont !)
let me point example to a build order I just read from Stylish's (A- Swedish terran) guide, the popular tvz build:
1. TvZ 9 minute Push (This compared to other standard TvZbuilds are explained on page 32.)
A. Build Order: - Hide Spoiler -
9 supply
11 rax
12 scout
16 supply
18 cc
22 supply
23 refinery
25 rax
32 academy
38 supply
38 ebay
48 supply
48 factory
52 refinery
54 supply
56 comsats
58 supply
60 starport
64 supply + turrets
70 science facility
This strategy counter 3hatch muta into 3rd exp and hive.
If he hasn't started upgrading to hive when you scan before you move out, add another vessel instead of dropship and move out when vessel is finnished. But before that scan again, if he still hasn't started hive wait for the 2-1 upgrade and move out with a huge army towards his natural. Hotkey 1 2 3 4 5 and use the rest manually.
for more details listen to the commentary
point being is this is but one example where build orders involve scouting and branching off to pre-developed reactions based on what they scout. it's not like they just use their brain and make the good decision based on logic and understanding, any player can just "oh if they went 2 hatch then change the build to Y. if 3 hatch then continue X"
of course this is when reacting to common builds/openings, not something weird. in those cases yes you may need to use your brain and show some good decision making 
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On January 30 2010 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I think (just like last thread) that it's a really, really, really bad idea. Replays didn't kill creativity - people just got too fucking good for random bullshit to work. Yeah, replays sped that process up but it would have happened anyway.
Much more important is the fact that watching a replay is FUN, and this way it wouldn't be.
I mean, don't you download replays from TL or other sites? Would it really be nearly as fun to watch them, if you could only see one player...?
+1 to this.
I highly disagree with "hiding" strategies for the sake of keeping them hidden for some time longer. It benefits ONLY the player who developed the strategy.
To me when it comes to strategy games, I want to see the strategy pushed to the limit. I want to see it evolve, I want to see top level play. "hiding" strategies seems counterproductive to making a strategy game.
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United States7166 Posts
On January 30 2010 09:03 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 08:42 Zelniq wrote:On January 30 2010 08:36 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On January 30 2010 08:18 Zelniq wrote:
"but to intentionally dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community is selfish and stupid and comes from players wishing to maintain an edge without having to put in the same practice time as other players."
i like how analyzing your every opponent's action, timing, and build order is equivalent to "dumb down the overall knowledge level of the entire community." Imagine if there was no fog of war in SC1, players in games always had vision of the entire map. Then if SC2 was coming out and I suggested fog of war IN-GAME, would you say it's "dumbing down the overall knowledge level of the entire community" as well? This is slightly unfair comparison but the point should be clear enough
It is a completely unfair comparison. The point of fog of war is to make the collection of intelligence part of the strategy players must consider. The point of attaching DRM to build orders is to maintain the advantage of the monopoly on knowledge held by a few players, even after they put that knowledge into practice. Teams should be able to learn from other teams - bball teams shouldn't be stopped from running the Princeton offense just because someone else ran it first. that's what im trying to say. i'm not saying to remove replays completely, i'm arguing that you can still learn enough from watching your side of the replay. and no the point of "attaching Digital Rights Management to build orders" is not to maintain a monopoly of knowledge held by a few players, but to discourage incessant, thoughtless build-order copying and to discourage players from relying mostly on just their mechanics and how well they can execute builds. I think the Boxer quote supports the idea that players like Boxer should be able to maintain their monopoly on knowledge of how to execute certain builds in order to further their success past where it would go if their builds were fully understood. It is the necessary corollary to preventing build-order copying. When you prevent build-order copying by fogged replays you also prevent creative players of other races from analyzing Boxer-type builds in order to craft new responses. You also prevent creative players of the same race from evolving the ideas further or working the new ideas into older strategies.
"When you prevent build-order copying by fogged replays you also prevent creative players of other races from analyzing Boxer-type builds in order to craft new responses. "
Creative players, im assuming they are also ones that understand the game fairly well and are experienced, will be able to come up with creative counter-reactions without needing to get full vision of their opponent anyway. same thing with creative players of the same race, provided they have some idea of what the general build idea is
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On January 30 2010 09:13 Marimokkori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I think (just like last thread) that it's a really, really, really bad idea. Replays didn't kill creativity - people just got too fucking good for random bullshit to work. Yeah, replays sped that process up but it would have happened anyway.
Much more important is the fact that watching a replay is FUN, and this way it wouldn't be.
I mean, don't you download replays from TL or other sites? Would it really be nearly as fun to watch them, if you could only see one player...? +1 to this. I highly disagree with "hiding" strategies for the sake of keeping them hidden for some time longer. It benefits ONLY the player who developed the strategy. To me when it comes to strategy games, I want to see the strategy pushed to the limit. I want to see it evolve, I want to see top level play. "hiding" strategies seems counterproductive to making a strategy game.
ALL of this will happen even if players don't get full vision of their opponents. We all want to see strategy pushed to the limit. Top level play will always be evolving, advancing.. new strategies emerging and being shown, etc. my idea does not change this
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I dunno, I think build orders are inevitable and they don't bother me that much. One thing that would might be gone if a lot of players put on fog are those funny replays like the 2v2v2v2 rep shown in Day 9's 50 episode. Like when that one player puts his CC a mile from the minerals when he could have put it right where it is supposed to go. I suppose the part where purple rebuilds might be funnier if it was fogged up but fog can be turned on for comedic effect in sc1 reps.
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EPT
