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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2009 07:14 Jazriel wrote:
Every click should count. Every click should put one player one step closer to defeating the enemy. All what Sirlin argues against is that repetitive tasks should be replaced because there is no though involved. Skill, sure. Many thoughtless things require skill. Sirlin is simply an advocate that a game should be a pure extension of a player's reasoning.
Assertion 1: Basketball is a game.
Assertion 2: Dribbling is a repetitive task that requires skill but no thought.
Conclusion: Dribbling should be removed from basketball.
Games are skill-driven. Not all of them are thought-driven (hell, most of them aren't). Why is that a bad thing?
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On December 23 2009 09:14 Jazriel wrote:
Truth has nothing to do with what I say and the Truth is objective. Statistically, you and 99% of the people on these forums will disagree with that axiom.
The truth is true because it's the truth. Thanks for confirming that you're either trolling or mentally handicapped.
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On December 21 2009 17:37 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 16:54 Kaneh wrote:
What he (Sirlin) is saying is he'd rather have more strategy and less dexterity.
What some here are saying is they're rather keep the dexterity.
What puzzles me is why a strategy game would require such high dexterity before you even got to competing in the strategy aspect of it. if you want pure strategy play chess
QFT
It's a "real time strategy" game not a strategy game. The difference is real time.
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On December 23 2009 09:25 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2009 07:14 Jazriel wrote:
Every click should count. Every click should put one player one step closer to defeating the enemy. All what Sirlin argues against is that repetitive tasks should be replaced because there is no though involved. Skill, sure. Many thoughtless things require skill. Sirlin is simply an advocate that a game should be a pure extension of a player's reasoning. Assertion 1: Basketball is a game. Assertion 2: Dribbling is a repetitive task that requires skill but no thought. Conclusion: Dribbling should be removed from basketball. Games are skill-driven. Not all of them are thought-driven (hell, most of them aren't). Why is that a bad thing?
The issue here is one of what you want your games to test. Personally I do not want RTSs or fighting games to test my dexterity for the sake of doing so; I want every action to have a decision behind it (hence, automine is good--I am not making an actual decision when I tell my workers to go mine after they're made). Many people disagree, and I don't see how you can say one group is right and the other wrong.
As for basketball, well, I don't like basketball in the first place, but my understanding is basketball is supposed to test physical skills as well as decision-making. By eliminating dribbling you make basketball less a test of physical skills. Automine does not make Starcraft any less a test of decision-making.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2009 10:00 crate wrote:
The issue here is one of what you want your games to test. Personally I do not want RTSs or fighting games to test my dexterity for the sake of doing so; I want every action to have a decision behind it (hence, automine is good--I am not making an actual decision when I tell my workers to go mine after they're made). Many people disagree, and I don't see how you can say one group is right and the other wrong.
That's my point.
I directed the post at Jazriel because he postfixed that statement with "ultimately this is the truth". Obviously it can't *just* be the truth if it takes true premises and leads them to a questionable conclusion.
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On December 23 2009 10:00 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2009 09:25 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2009 07:14 Jazriel wrote:
Every click should count. Every click should put one player one step closer to defeating the enemy. All what Sirlin argues against is that repetitive tasks should be replaced because there is no though involved. Skill, sure. Many thoughtless things require skill. Sirlin is simply an advocate that a game should be a pure extension of a player's reasoning. Assertion 1: Basketball is a game. Assertion 2: Dribbling is a repetitive task that requires skill but no thought. Conclusion: Dribbling should be removed from basketball. Games are skill-driven. Not all of them are thought-driven (hell, most of them aren't). Why is that a bad thing? The issue here is one of what you want your games to test. Personally I do not want RTSs or fighting games to test my dexterity for the sake of doing so; I want every action to have a decision behind it (hence, automine is good--I am not making an actual decision when I tell my workers to go mine after they're made). Many people disagree, and I don't see how you can say one group is right and the other wrong. As for basketball, well, I don't like basketball in the first place, but my understanding is basketball is supposed to test physical skills as well as decision-making. By eliminating dribbling you make basketball less a test of physical skills. Automine does not make Starcraft any less a test of decision-making.
The argument would be that by removing the task of dribbling you can theoretically free players up to improve strategic thinking. It's the same argument that people who advocate automining use when they say that you can use those clicks to work on more 'important' aspects of gameplay. It just shifts the game on the mechanical capability - strategic capability spectrum. Where anyone thinks the game should rest on that spectrum is totally subjective.
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Sirlin's right. Deal with it outdated SC players. When you look at his arguement from an objective viewpoint it becomes so incredibly obvious that he's right and things like a unit selection limit, That mineral harvesting thing you SC players care so much about, and SBS hold RTSes back.
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Yeah, they've held SC way back..... Oh wait.
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On December 23 2009 11:06 Mike941 wrote:
Sirlin's right. Deal with it outdated SC players. When you look at his arguement from an objective viewpoint it becomes so incredibly obvious that he's right and things like a unit selection limit, That mineral harvesting thing you SC players care so much about, and SBS hold RTSes back.
You can say that they 'hold back' the strategic aspect of the game by forcing the player to focus more on mechanical control, but you can't say that it's a 'worse' game for it. From an objective viewpoint, he would prefer that the game test only your strategic thinking. That does not mean that the game would be better without the tests of dexterity that it entails right now. That just means that Sirlin would like it more.
Seriously, it's like he has some army of zombies that he's managed to make blind to the value of anything other than planning and thinking in competition.
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On December 23 2009 09:40 HyKe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 17:37 IdrA wrote:On December 21 2009 16:54 Kaneh wrote:
What he (Sirlin) is saying is he'd rather have more strategy and less dexterity.
What some here are saying is they're rather keep the dexterity.
What puzzles me is why a strategy game would require such high dexterity before you even got to competing in the strategy aspect of it. if you want pure strategy play chess QFT It's a "real time strategy" game not a strategy game. The difference is real time.
If you really can't tell the difference between a turn based strategy game from real time then I understand that you like all the clicking, since thinking doesn't seem to be your strong side.
Seriously, comparing chess to starcraft just because blizz removes some clicking is the biggest kiddie QQ out there.
It's fine to add more clicking to put more emphasis on the physical attributes of a gamer (fast clicking, hand eye coordination to click each unit on screen etc). I prefer adding more emphasis on thought, the strategy part and less of clicking and like the direction of SC2.
But still to even go that far and say "go play chess" just goes to show that you completely lack the brain power so I understand that players like you like the clicking instead.
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Have you tried clicking a lot?
If you clicked more often maybe you would like it?
Sometimes I just move icons around my desktop really fast in random patterns when iCCup is down. It's actually a lot of fun.
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Starcraft as a management game is only entertaining for the teenager who doesn't know what tendonitis and arthritis are. What happens to the progamers in their late 20's? Do they just get stupid all of the sudden or is it because 400 apm 8 hours a day will destroy your hands?
Why not make the interface smart and add more things for the player to do. Perhaps some more strategic choices/actions to help him differentiate himself from weaker players even further. Rather then making the player click 10 times to make a dumb unit perform a simple action.
The worse thing in the world to me is an interface that doesn't allow you to do what you need to do in the moment. Think world of warcraft arena. Global cooldowns, stuns, spammable crowd control. Terrible setup for competative play.
Let blizzard make the interface good. Tell them instead to add more things for you to do. And if your fingers are hurting you should probably stop playing or cut down alot or you may regret it in the not so distant future.
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Maximum useful APM is finite but beyond what any mortal can do. So drop it.
On December 23 2009 11:06 Mike941 wrote:
Sirlin's right. Deal with it outdated SC players. When you look at his arguement from an objective viewpoint it becomes so incredibly obvious that he's right and things like a unit selection limit, That mineral harvesting thing you SC players care so much about, and SBS hold RTSes back.
Fuck these threads. It's like clowns emerge from the woodwork just to demonstrate that they are idiots who don't play Starcraft who nevertheless profess to know all about how RTSes should work.
On December 23 2009 11:34 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2009 09:40 HyKe wrote:On December 21 2009 17:37 IdrA wrote:On December 21 2009 16:54 Kaneh wrote:
What he (Sirlin) is saying is he'd rather have more strategy and less dexterity.
What some here are saying is they're rather keep the dexterity.
What puzzles me is why a strategy game would require such high dexterity before you even got to competing in the strategy aspect of it. if you want pure strategy play chess QFT It's a "real time strategy" game not a strategy game. The difference is real time. If you really can't tell the difference between a turn based strategy game from real time then I understand that you like all the clicking, since thinking doesn't seem to be your strong side. Seriously, comparing chess to starcraft just because blizz removes some clicking is the biggest kiddie QQ out there. It's fine to add more clicking to put more emphasis on the physical attributes of a gamer (fast clicking, hand eye coordination to click each unit on screen etc). I prefer adding more emphasis on thought, the strategy part and less of clicking and like the direction of SC2. But still to even go that far and say "go play chess" just goes to show that you completely lack the brain power so I understand that players like you like the clicking instead.
Sirlin basically said that RTSes should not have a dexterity component. If you don't want any dexterity components, in short, Starcraft is not the game for you. "Go play chess" is a stupid one-line response but it's not exactly unwarranted since the assertion he was responding to was similarly stupid. Sirlin didn't say "I would prefer a game with more strategy and less dexterity," he said, "Starcraft II should have more strategy and less dexterity and people on disagree with me because they are selfish, stubborn, or stupid."
On December 23 2009 12:46 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Starcraft as a management game is only entertaining for the teenager who doesn't know what tendonitis and arthritis are. What happens to the progamers in their late 20's? Do they just get stupid all of the sudden or is it because 400 apm 8 hours a day will destroy your hands?
There are no new progamers above 25, so it's not carpal tunnel. It's age. And plenty of Starcraft players are not teenagers, but way to be be a condescending jackass in your first post.
On December 23 2009 12:46 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Why not make the interface smart and add more things for the player to do. Perhaps some more strategic choices/actions to help him differentiate himself from weaker players even further. Rather then making the player click 10 times to make a dumb unit perform a simple action.
I'm unaware of what unit requires ten clicks to perform a simple action.
On December 23 2009 12:46 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Let blizzard make the interface good. Tell them instead to add more things for you to do. And if your fingers are hurting you should probably stop playing or cut down alot or you may regret it in the not so distant future.
What are these "more things for you to do"? Propose some.
Jesus fucking Christ, if you think mechanical skill has no place in Starcraft or similar games, then Starcraft is not the game for you. It's really that fucking easy. Go play some other game that doesn't require mechanical skill. This is what you sound like: "Street Fighter is stupid! It's a fighting game, not an RTS, and I like RTSes. Therefore, Street Fighter sucks."
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Emerald if you think you can just click like that all day with no ill effects you're wrong you will pay for it eventually trust me. I know. I'm not being condescending I'm trying to drive home my point so maybe someone will benefit from my post.
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My APM is under 150, and I don't play Starcraft every day. I'm sure that for people who have 300+ APM and play ten hours a day every day for years may eventually cause damage to their hands but the people who do this are few and far between, and I'm pretty sure they know exactly what they're getting themselves into. And criticizing Starcraft because games that tend towards high APM put more strain on the hands which might have health effects down the road is a long way removed from what Sirlin was saying.
[[edit]] Also, if you are genuinely concerned about the health of people's hands and not one of Sirlin's mindless warrior drones, then I apologize for my harshness.
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On December 23 2009 13:15 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Emerald if you think you can just click like that all day with no ill effects you're wrong you will pay for it eventually trust me. I know. I'm not being condescending I'm trying to drive home my point so maybe someone will benefit from my post.
Provide evidence instead of asking us to trust you. He already disproved your example that people tend to get out of sc progaming by 25 in pointing out that nobody gets in after 25 either.
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I don't think they know what they're getting themselves into. 11 years ago I had no idea. And it takes very little to injure your hands on a keyboard especially over a long period of time. I think people should consider this before asking for more.
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You can alway find out the hardway TPS.
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On December 23 2009 13:33 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
You can alway find out the hardway TPS.
Or you could provide some sort of backup for four separate posts of baseless claims.
I did not thoroughly read your posts, I apologize. I would trust your first hand experience.
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I experienced it first hand its not a baseless claim. If you don't want to believe me thats your choice. I know its a scary thought I can understand why you don't wanna believe me but its real it happens.
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EPT
