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On June 10 2010 07:06 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 06:36 gillon wrote:
I think the arguments that TLO had concerning the so called imbalance pre tank nerf are very sound. It's the same arguments I heard from Lz aswell. Alot of players just wouldn't accept that they might have to do something out of the ordinary roach/hydra outmacro style to beat someone. According to TLO nothing is imbalance as there is always a way around said imbalance to achieve victory. Don't you think that logic is flawed? Imbalance does not equal unbeatable! I believe blizzard should stop patching / collecting data on balance.... why not right? IMO It requires far more skills to win against mech as a zerg player than it is on the part of terran who is using mech. Herein lies the problem. A truly balance match up is where both players are starting on equal grounds - both have to work equally hard to achieve victory. --- Let me give you an example. Everyone in the wc3 community knows that the orc race is severely overpowered. Yet some Orc players refute these claims. They say "they are more talented then their opponents" and that other races should adopt or find some way of winning rather then complaining.
at lower levels, a strategy might be more imbalanced then in higher levels where professional micro/macro/timing come into play.
get that through your brain imo, i play zerg and as a zerg mech is hard to deal against when the terran and i are equally balanced at mid diamond level. when players get pro, strategies become easier to deal with.
also you're so full of shit and arrogance i don't know where to begin
User was temp banned for this post.
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![[image loading]](http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4104/day9.jpg)
GRRR DAY NINE GRRR
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![[image loading]](http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/402/mr9.jpg)
My stream froze on this...
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On June 10 2010 08:39 Newguy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 08:36 phuzi0n wrote:On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote:
Well I mean that in a player perspective. During beta you're not a player, you're a tester. Testers are supposed to think about everything that could be a problem for players. If you're trying every possible strategy you can think of against a particular strategy (Terran mech in this case) and still coming up short, then that's an imbalance. If you have to be incredibly more skilled then your opponent to beat their strategy, that's an imbalance. If you have to get Infestors and Neural Parasite their entire army just to beat them, that's an imbalance on both sides. Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester. No its not. Its way easier to 4 pool someone in brood war than it is to stop it - this doesn't make it imbalanced.
That and pretty much all cheese is imbalanced. Proxy Gateways/Cannons/Reapers were imbalanced and so they were nerfed. There has to at least be a chance to counter it if you scout it for it to be even remotely balanced.
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hey day (and all)
i suck @ sc2, new to RTS and am just playing broodwar now mostly for the story but i was a pro gamer at one point so i just had something i wanted to share with everyone
man i hate that people complain about APM and say that's like "the difference." it's so obvious that TO BE THE BEST you need to be the best at EVERYTHING, including handspeed. also it's so completely obvious that you always have room for improvement in a game where you can't 100% perfectly control your character. apm is obviously important if you want to be really good.
really impressive that day9 stays so calm when dealing with those sorts of claims and statements, i'd probably be screaming at the camera lol.
also i'm familiar with the idea of not playing the game to win until you're good--
my friend told me to ONLY MACRO at the start. focus on defending your base and expanding. only build gateway units. keep your money low.
anything else to expedite the process of getting me better?
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On June 10 2010 08:36 phuzi0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote:
Well I mean that in a player perspective. During beta you're not a player, you're a tester. Testers are supposed to think about everything that could be a problem for players. If you're trying every possible strategy you can think of against a particular strategy (Terran mech in this case) and still coming up short, then that's an imbalance. If you have to be incredibly more skilled then your opponent to beat their strategy, that's an imbalance. If you have to get Infestors and Neural Parasite their entire army just to beat them, that's an imbalance on both sides. Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester.
That made no sense at all, so your implying that in a month or 2 of testing you can officialy said, with ALL THE INFORMATIONS possible that this strat is imbalanced .....
So in 2 month of training, you tryed every strategy, every timing, unit composition possible on every map against multiple top terran player.
Thus you have the knowledge to say, THIS IS IMBALANCED ....
Well man prop to you because I did played a lot and their is still strat I didnt find correct answer to but im sure the answer is somewhere in trying different unit mix and trying differente timing attack or expanding strategy then just claim its OP.
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On June 10 2010 08:58 shawster wrote:at lower levels, a strategy might be more imbalanced then in higher levels where professional micro/macro/timing come into play.
This is true, but the developers need to try to keep it as even as they can for all skill levels. They need to keep it balanced for Pro's to get publicity to sell more copies of their game, but they also need to keep it balanced for scrubs so that they'll recommend it to their friends. Balance is not one dimensional!
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On June 10 2010 08:58 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 07:06 Gunman_csz wrote:On June 10 2010 06:36 gillon wrote:
I think the arguments that TLO had concerning the so called imbalance pre tank nerf are very sound. It's the same arguments I heard from Lz aswell. Alot of players just wouldn't accept that they might have to do something out of the ordinary roach/hydra outmacro style to beat someone. According to TLO nothing is imbalance as there is always a way around said imbalance to achieve victory. Don't you think that logic is flawed? Imbalance does not equal unbeatable! I believe blizzard should stop patching / collecting data on balance.... why not right? IMO It requires far more skills to win against mech as a zerg player than it is on the part of terran who is using mech. Herein lies the problem. A truly balance match up is where both players are starting on equal grounds - both have to work equally hard to achieve victory. --- Let me give you an example. Everyone in the wc3 community knows that the orc race is severely overpowered. Yet some Orc players refute these claims. They say "they are more talented then their opponents" and that other races should adopt or find some way of winning rather then complaining. at lower levels, a strategy might be more imbalanced then in higher levels where professional micro/macro/timing come into play. get that through your brain imo, i play zerg and as a zerg mech is hard to deal against when the terran and i are equally balanced at mid diamond level. when players get pro, strategies become easier to deal with. also you're so full of shit and arrogance i don't know where to begin
I apologize If I come out looking as an arrogant/condescending person. I am not good with words but I assure you that were not my motives, I just wanted to put forth my opinion.
I never once said that top to bottom approach to balancing is wrong - you are putting words into my mouth. In fact Mech is/was considered overpowered by both top level players as well at lower levels.
Edit: Try searching Mech on these forums and I am sure you will find many interviews/comments by top players about their views on Mech.
Here is one video I found, where both Morrow and Haypro where asked about it.
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/12103-gosutv-last-episode-of-the-season
Edit 2: I would appreciate it if you could restrain yourself from posting stuff like "also you're so full of shit and arrogance i don't know where to begin", If you have any personal comments to make then you are always free to send them through PM, rather then posting them on Day9's thread.
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On June 10 2010 08:36 phuzi0n wrote:
Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester.
meh. i think this is a bad attitude to have. sure go on the bnet forums and report troubles you're having in some detail, describe what is and isn't fun about it, but that's fundamentally different from "nerf this! nerf that! buff me! add 1 armor here! subtract 1 armor there!"... imo there's a reason we don't work for blizzard and it's because we don't know the first thing about balancing an rts. balancing is way different from strategizing. blizzard has to think about the longevity and flexibility of the game, not just the wounded pride of individual players who are having difficulty against a particular strat right this moment.
so yeah help blizzard gather data, that's your role as a beta tester. not making balance decisions.
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On June 10 2010 09:14 XDsCrazy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 08:36 phuzi0n wrote:On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote:
Well I mean that in a player perspective. During beta you're not a player, you're a tester. Testers are supposed to think about everything that could be a problem for players. If you're trying every possible strategy you can think of against a particular strategy (Terran mech in this case) and still coming up short, then that's an imbalance. If you have to be incredibly more skilled then your opponent to beat their strategy, that's an imbalance. If you have to get Infestors and Neural Parasite their entire army just to beat them, that's an imbalance on both sides. Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester. That made no sense at all, so your implying that in a month or 2 of testing you can officialy said, with ALL THE INFORMATIONS possible that this strat is imbalanced ..... So in 2 month of training, you tryed every strategy, every timing, unit composition possible on every map against multiple top terran player. Thus you have the knowledge to say, THIS IS IMBALANCED .... Well man prop to you because I did played a lot and their is still strat I didnt find correct answer to but im sure the answer is somewhere in trying different unit mix and trying differente timing attack or expanding strategy then just claim its OP.
You completely missed the point and are still in the mindset of a player. As a player you're thinking "there's got to be something I can do to beat this" but as a tester you should be thinking "I've tried all these things and none of them can beat it, this seems imbalanced." I'm not the game designer so I can't make the call whether it's imbalanced or not, but as a tester it's my responsibility to give feedback so that the game designer can be informed.
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On June 10 2010 09:17 Doc Daneeka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 08:36 phuzi0n wrote:
Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester. meh. i think this is a bad attitude to have. sure go on the bnet forums and report troubles you're having in some detail, describe what is and isn't fun about it, but that's fundamentally different from "nerf this! nerf that! buff me! add 1 armor here! subtract 1 armor there!"... imo there's a reason we don't work for blizzard and it's because we don't know the first thing about balancing an rts. balancing is way different from strategizing. blizzard has to think about the longevity and flexibility of the game, not just the wounded pride of individual players who are having difficulty against a particular strat right this moment. so yeah help blizzard gather data, that's your role as a beta tester. not making balance decisions.
Every patch has had balancing changes as a direct result of feedback from testers, including the tank nerf to mech. The fact that they're making balancing changes based on tester feedback strengthens my argument that testers should tell them what we believe is imbalanced.
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On June 10 2010 09:22 phuzi0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 09:14 XDsCrazy wrote:On June 10 2010 08:36 phuzi0n wrote:On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote:
Well I mean that in a player perspective. During beta you're not a player, you're a tester. Testers are supposed to think about everything that could be a problem for players. If you're trying every possible strategy you can think of against a particular strategy (Terran mech in this case) and still coming up short, then that's an imbalance. If you have to be incredibly more skilled then your opponent to beat their strategy, that's an imbalance. If you have to get Infestors and Neural Parasite their entire army just to beat them, that's an imbalance on both sides. Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester. That made no sense at all, so your implying that in a month or 2 of testing you can officialy said, with ALL THE INFORMATIONS possible that this strat is imbalanced ..... So in 2 month of training, you tryed every strategy, every timing, unit composition possible on every map against multiple top terran player. Thus you have the knowledge to say, THIS IS IMBALANCED .... Well man prop to you because I did played a lot and their is still strat I didnt find correct answer to but im sure the answer is somewhere in trying different unit mix and trying differente timing attack or expanding strategy then just claim its OP. You completely missed the point and are still in the mindset of a player. As a player you're thinking "there's got to be something I can do to beat this" but as a tester you should be thinking "I've tried all these things and none of them can beat it, this seems imbalanced." I'm not the game designer so I can't make the call whether it's imbalanced or not, but as a tester it's my responsibility to give feedback so that the game designer can be informed.
Still make no sense man ... look ill give you a simple exemple (extreme but its just to show you)
PvZ (I am the toss) and Zerg go mass hydra
I try mass zlot
Mass stalker
Different mix
Void ray
Colossus (with BAD timing on them)
Templar (with BAD expo timing)
none of them work
I then call the strat imbalance .... (going with ur logic)
Another toss then go Colossus but change the BO and get them with a different a LOT more useable timing and win.
Another toss decide to try to FE 1 gate / 1 forge and then get Templar quick out of 4 gaz and it work too ...
So the strategy WASNT imbalance, it was just that the way I was approching it was not working and someone else found something that work just fine.
You cant say something is imbalance with SHORT TERM testing. To call something imbalance, you need LONG TERM testing. Beta is not made to test subtile imbalance (well OBVIOUS one will be detected for sure) but to test to game in general and find BUGS in it.
TvZ with mech play atm seem HARD for zerg but we start to see player working their way around it and winning games. That make me think that the match might not be imbalance but that the mindset zerg need in this match is different then the normal macro one.
That kind of match up need LONG TERM testing before we can jump on the IMBA aspect of it.
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On June 10 2010 09:14 phuzi0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 08:58 shawster wrote:at lower levels, a strategy might be more imbalanced then in higher levels where professional micro/macro/timing come into play. This is true, but the developers need to try to keep it as even as they can for all skill levels. They need to keep it balanced for Pro's to get publicity to sell more copies of their game, but they also need to keep it balanced for scrubs so that they'll recommend it to their friends. Balance is not one dimensional!
At low levels 'imbalance' means nothing, whether people admit it or not you can always win at lower levels by just playing better. Something like a void ray rush or whatever is fotm can be beat by upping your game a bit, seeing it coming and building a composition that 'counters' it (I don't like the word counter, but if its a 1 unit rush it makes sense). If you don't admit you could just simply play better then your just a whiny bitch.
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Well, we can still say we a likehood of xx % that atm terran has an advantage over zerg. Sure there is still a chance of some crazy strat being developed, but the likehood is relatively low.
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On June 10 2010 09:35 phuzi0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 09:17 Doc Daneeka wrote:On June 10 2010 08:36 phuzi0n wrote:
Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester. meh. i think this is a bad attitude to have. sure go on the bnet forums and report troubles you're having in some detail, describe what is and isn't fun about it, but that's fundamentally different from "nerf this! nerf that! buff me! add 1 armor here! subtract 1 armor there!"... imo there's a reason we don't work for blizzard and it's because we don't know the first thing about balancing an rts. balancing is way different from strategizing. blizzard has to think about the longevity and flexibility of the game, not just the wounded pride of individual players who are having difficulty against a particular strat right this moment. so yeah help blizzard gather data, that's your role as a beta tester. not making balance decisions. Every patch has had balancing changes as a direct result of feedback from testers, including the tank nerf to mech. The fact that they're making balancing changes based on tester feedback strengthens my argument that testers should tell them what we believe is imbalanced.
yeah feedback is fine, but 'stop thinking like players' rubs me the wrong way cos how else are we supposed to figure out what works and what doesn't? if everyone approaches every game like they're gonna lose cos the game is imbalanced, instead of taking the current balance for granted and proactively looking for existing solutions that haven't been found yet, then blizzard is going to get an incorrect report on what is balanced and what isn't, it'll just be a buff-my-race-fest. that's what i mean by the difference between giving feedback and trying to design the game.
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On June 10 2010 10:16 f0rk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 09:14 phuzi0n wrote:On June 10 2010 08:58 shawster wrote:at lower levels, a strategy might be more imbalanced then in higher levels where professional micro/macro/timing come into play. This is true, but the developers need to try to keep it as even as they can for all skill levels. They need to keep it balanced for Pro's to get publicity to sell more copies of their game, but they also need to keep it balanced for scrubs so that they'll recommend it to their friends. Balance is not one dimensional! At low levels 'imbalance' means nothing, whether people admit it or not you can always win at lower levels by just playing better. Something like a void ray rush or whatever is fotm can be beat by upping your game a bit, seeing it coming and building a composition that 'counters' it (I don't like the word counter, but if its a 1 unit rush it makes sense). If you don't admit you could just simply play better then your just a whiny bitch.
You're talking about an individual experience instead of the collective experience of the player base. If one person has a problem with it then it's a personal problem. If a few people have a problem with it then it's still a personal problem. If the forum is flooded with complaints that they can't beat X then the developers should at least look at why they're having a problem with it and then decide what to do if anything.
Believe it or not but everybody does have a personal skill cap. ie. there's a maximum skill that they can attain no matter how hard they try or how much time they put into getting better. Strategy games are incredibly hard to balance and I'm not saying they should take a hatchet to everything, nor do I think that everything is balanced. I'm just tired of many people having the attitude that if something is incredibly strong or weak then it's just because players haven't figured out how to counter or use it effectively. This is the time to help them balance the game before paying customers are affected.
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I want a radio station of Day[9] talking when he's half asleep.
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I managed to nab this little gem during today's daily
![[image loading]](http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp11/JAyersMann/Day9Face1.jpg)
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EPT
