EPTOn June 10 2010 09:06 shimpoe wrote:
![[image loading]](http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/402/mr9.jpg)
My stream froze on this...
My stream froze on this...
I cant stop laughing at this, my eyes are watering XD
day9 is so awesome. Having a blast with your casts my good man!
Day[9].tv Daily - Page 336
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Luga
52 Posts
I cant stop laughing at this, my eyes are watering XD day9 is so awesome. Having a blast with your casts my good man! | ||
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angrysasquatch
Canada4 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img814.imageshack.us/i/img1132.jpg/) Yeahhhh 2 month old sticky note from when I played terran still. Keep up the great work day 9, really loving these noobie-oriented casts (as I am a big RTS noob) | ||
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yakitate304
United States655 Posts
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matko5
Croatia385 Posts
On June 10 2010 13:12 yakitate304 wrote: I love the fact that you made a "The Princess Bride" reference at the end of the TLO video. "Dream of large women." Love that movie. as long as I am concerned, "Rest well and dream of large women" is a day9 reference. | ||
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endGame
United States394 Posts
On June 10 2010 13:12 yakitate304 wrote: I love the fact that you made a "The Princess Bride" reference at the end of the TLO video. "Dream of large women." Love that movie. The Princess Bride is my favorite movie of all time too ^^ | ||
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Lysogen
United States38 Posts
On June 10 2010 14:12 matko5 wrote: as long as I am concerned, "Rest well and dream of large women" is a day9 reference. This. Also, he's left us with that quite a few times, it's a standard strat from him. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2010 09:22 phuzi0n wrote: You completely missed the point and are still in the mindset of a player. As a player you're thinking "there's got to be something I can do to beat this" but as a tester you should be thinking "I've tried all these things and none of them can beat it, this seems imbalanced." I'm not the game designer so I can't make the call whether it's imbalanced or not, but as a tester it's my responsibility to give feedback so that the game designer can be informed. How do you know the game designers wants us to stop thinking like a player? Have you ever been involved with a Balance Designer during a beta of a RTS? TLO (and myself), have been heavily involved in numerous beta tests of the Supreme Commander franchise. They always encouraged us to check all options before declaring something overpowered, and regretted some changes they did after release which they had to make because 95% of the community demanded them but which turned out to completely screw one faction once the skill level was higher. They regretted it because they were aware that it would happen but the pressure from the community was just too high to not do it without endangering the Developer-Community Relationship. Why should he think "I've tried all these things and none of them can beat it, this seems imbalanced" if he found something which can beat it? If you have the mindset "TvZ is imba" then you will never find a solution, because there is no reason to. Just complain that TvZ is imba and hope the developers will "fix it". Claiming something is unbeatable after such a short time span is unreasonable. What you can do is list the things you tried and which failed to give the Designer a good idea on whether you tried everything yet and there really is a problem. Just stating "I did everything and nothing works" doesn't help the Designer very much at all. They also always preferred the Feedback of people who didn't stick to one race all the time  | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45338 Posts
On June 10 2010 04:34 Liquid.Genesis wrote: Day[9], on checklists. Day's mom: "What do you want for dinner" Day: "Make probes" Day's mom: "But there aren't any in the pantry" Day: "More supply" Day's mom: "Why don't we go out for dinner" Day: "Money low" Day's mom: "Ok, I'll just make mac n cheese" Day: "Chronoboost the microwave" LOL I really enjoyed his "Back to the Basics" daily  | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On June 10 2010 04:34 Liquid.Genesis wrote: Day[9], on checklists. Day's mom: "What do you want for dinner" Day: "Make probes" Day's mom: "But there aren't any in the pantry" Day: "More supply" Day's mom: "Why don't we go out for dinner" Day: "Money low" Day's mom: "Ok, I'll just make mac n cheese" Day: "Chronoboost the microwave" LOL that's fucking hilariousssssss | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
Balance is an entirely different ballgame. You can't just check the forums and see 9001 threads saying "NERF VOIDRAYS AND MARAUDERS!!!!!!111" and say "Oh, I guess we should nerf these." because 99.99% of the people making these threads, and making these claims don't have any numbers to back their claim up. Balancing a game is a scientific process. It's basically pure math. The problem is that balancing between 3 different sets of units has an ENORMOUS number of variables that they simply can't calculate 100%. Enter the Beta testers. They want us to play the game. They want us to play it a lot. They want us to try things they never thought of, and they want us to learn every inch of the game. Why? Not so we can go on the forums and bitch about something. Not to get our opinions on our favorite or most hated units. Not so we can come up with lame balancing ideas and new spells/abilities and all that junk. They want us to play so they can let their system collect data. It is only after you notice a major discrepancy in a match-up that you can determine if there is AN imbalance. Once you determine that there is one (say TvZ favors T 58% of the time) that you go back and figure out WHY it is imbalanced. Players making retarded nerf posts on the forums are doing it backwards. The Scientific method starts with Observation, not hypothesis or experimentation. We are to Blizzard as the Hubble telescope is to NASA. We are here to collect data for them to analyze. | ||
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SmiLeSE
Sweden58 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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razy
Russian Federation899 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On June 10 2010 07:06 Gunman_csz wrote: According to TLO nothing is imbalance as there is always a way around said imbalance to achieve victory. Don't you think that logic is flawed? Of course it's flawed...TLO's second language is English, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he didn't understand what the word meant. That being said, there's nothing wrong with his approach -- the idea that this is the game we're playing and rather than complain, he just needs to find a work-around...he constantly reminds himself that everything is beatable (which, if you're a pro-player, is a good mntra to live by). It's Blizzard's job to fix obvious imbalances, such as siege tanks right now. | ||
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RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
On June 10 2010 22:47 Graven wrote: Of course it's flawed...TLO's second language is English, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he didn't understand what the word meant. That being said, there's nothing wrong with his approach -- the idea that this is the game we're playing and rather than complain, he just needs to find a work-around...he constantly reminds himself that everything is beatable (which, if you're a pro-player, is a good mntra to live by). It's Blizzard's job to fix obvious imbalances, such as siege tanks right now. Well I also think that there is always a way around imbalance. Its just blizzard patches to make that way around stronger plays. I mean eventually the community will always find a way around something, but Blizz doesnt want the dynamic to be the T only goes this because its the only thing that stop what the Z does. | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On June 10 2010 22:56 RodrigoX wrote: Well I also think that there is always a way around imbalance. Its just blizzard patches to make that way around stronger plays. I mean eventually the community will always find a way around something, but Blizz doesnt want the dynamic to be the T only goes this because its the only thing that stop what the Z does. I think that's true on some maps and false on others. Because maps are so different and offer such huge swings in race advantage, the problem needs to be addressed by the devs, not the players. I think a great example was shown in the best of five between QXC (Terran) and Sheth (Zerg) (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7347080). Games 2 and 4 were automatic wins for QXC. I think 4 is the PERFECT example to use -- it's on Steppes of War and it was literally an impossible game for Sheth to win. QXC's final army is composed of about 20 Tanks, 4 Thors, 10 Hellions for harass, 12 Vikings and about five Ravens. Sheth tried mass Roach/Ultra as a response but a 200/200 army would barely kill anything of QXC. As the commentators mention, Sheth could have tried mass Brolord/Corrupter, but at that point, I don't think it would have mattered (QXC scouted the Spire being built and produced mass vikings as a response). The issue with Zerg going mass air is that their only hard counter to Vikings is Hydra, who get shredded by Tanks. The Viks/Ravens would have absolutely lit up the Brolord/Corrupter composition. That doesn't mean Zerg cannot beat Terran, it just means on certain maps it's a completely imbalanced matchup right now. | ||
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bb82
United States33 Posts
First, I define an actual noob by the following: Someone that doesn't have an efficiently high constructive-APM (60-120) during critical game moments. You make too many assumptions that are false because it is too hard for you to relate to an actual noob. I can see why your empathy is slightly lacking because you have been playing RTS or similar paced games for so many years, compared to an actual noob that has not been. But nonetheless, APM IS the deciding factor in how good you are in this game, solely because of the intense speed of the game. At least until you reach a certain point, which I feel is close to the semi-pro level, then timing becomes the key. You seem to justify your reasoning because you can slowly click (20ish APM) for the early (up to 7ish min) part of the game. Of course this is true, even I made it to diamond following a low APM speedling/baneling 6-7ish min rush. But that is no proof that simple timings override the handicap of APM. Once the game hits the mid game, especially when you start to harass/attack/scout AND macro, you NEED to be able to at least have a constructive (60-120) apm, which you also seem to imply isn't that hard to get. I'm sorry, but that is also completely false. Getting a constructive (60-120) apm is something that can take years of UI practicing. I could certainly train someone in how to be semi-good at this game, perhaps even to want to try to be good. But I KNOW they wont be able to play the game in a fashion that isn't arcadey, unless they have at least a constructive (60-120) apm. It would be like telling someone that doesn't have any skills with typing to go type a few chapters of a book, given only a certain amount of time that is based on how fast a decent typer could do it. I can type very fast, as I've been doing it for years. But I am not good with function keys or the number keys with shift, esc, backspace, etc. Basically I'm not that good with this sort of UI, as many wont be, unless they have been playing similarly based games for a long time, in a speed setting atmosphere. So although I can get my "Mom" into the game and teach her some basic timings (strategies and builds), she would soon get very discouraged at playing the game. She would soon realize that even though she knows what she wants to do, she wouldn't be able to do it at such a fast pace. I'll give you an example: I work on my BO and I know what I will do with all my number keys. I even force myself to use every shortcut, as practice. All your suggestions on practice is what I already do when I practice/play. Here is what happens: I'm macroing while trying to scout. It usually doesn't go to well, but I try. I instinctually know that I should keep my money low, not get supply blocked, build workers (up to about 60), and constantly build units. So I'm doing that, while trying to scout/harass/attack, to pin him down and to influence what I need to build, but I can't come even close to being able to do what I know I should be doing. The speed is so fast that by the time I switch between my keys, I get very behind to the point that it no longer matters. I might be warping in some units while I hear I'm under attack. I then tap 3 twice to get to my main army casters and have a spell ready with shift held down, BUT that battle is already over.. Or I'm scouting and setup a few way points in their base and switch back to my probe that is in a control group to build a building or two and then to my other control groups to build a few workers, units, crono, and perhaps even expand. But by the time I can possible get back to my scout/harasser/core-army, it is dead or I missed the intel/mission that I needed to complete. I'm handicapped solely by my APM, which doesn't improve as fast as you imply, it can take years to. Of course practice will help. But it is a flaw in the game that such long-term practicing, soley with the UI, is needed to be able to even start to implement basic strategies/tactics. It forces noobs to either only macro huge armies or to rely on cheese, both of which wont help you in the long run. So you are forced to treat this game as a job AND ONLY practice with improving your UI APM. Your practicing should be with improving your timings, strategies, and tactics, not with trying to break an APM handicap. This isn't 12 years ago, people now have many gaming options with how they spend their time. Speed RTs is really starting to only appeal to a very small % of players, while also discouraging a huge pool of players that might really get into the game, if there wasn't such a handicap. I know what I need to do, I just can't do it fast enough. Or god forbid I try to attack with 't' (grid layout) and hit 'y' instead, which can literally lose you a battle as by the time you get your units in a decent concave, you should have already tabbed and casted a spell or two. I can see why this extreme speed would be perfect for the competitive elitist RTS/RTS-like gamers. But do you really think an actual noob that cares about strategy is likely to find that "fun" or competitive? The APM handicap is just to high at this speed, which makes this game extremely unfriendly to actual noobs. What happens with actual noobs is that the game speed minimizes any sort of strategy and gives a very arcadey feeling to the game. So as certain players will find that fun, as it doesn't take much thought, many others will be very disappointed at actually thinking there was going to be strategy involved. Many would find this game very enjoyable at a slower speed, where they could also compete against others competitively. In this case, I would agree that timings are the biggest factor. But at the default ladder speed, APM is the overriding handicap. To say otherwise just shows a complete misunderstand of how an actual noob will perceive this game. The speed will force a huge pool of players to permanently leave ladder play. Some will go to fastest possible maps, random custom games, UMS, or single player campaign. Most will just permanently leave SC2 and not recommend it to others. It is a complete waste, when all it would take is a slower paced league for people that aren't so hardcore, yet also like to play competitively. I've been tinkering around with all three races and I'm starting to think my best long term option, because of my APM, is to play zerg (a race I don't enjoy) in the following manner, http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3643452/. -bb82 | ||
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btlyger
United States470 Posts
On June 10 2010 13:11 angrysasquatch wrote: Yeahhhh 2 month old sticky note from when I played terran still. Keep up the great work day 9, really loving these noobie-oriented casts (as I am a big RTS noob) Is that the 26" samsung tv/monitor? Thats what I'm using 8] | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
I agree that TLO didn't really comment on the map imbalance at all when discussing the matchup. I'm not going to whine, because this is a facet of the game that BW eventually was able to work around (mostly). Even BW has problems with map balance to this day. On the other hand, a perfect example of the map imbalance or lack thereof in SC2 was seen in the game Day chose to cast. Metalopolis with cross spawns is arguably the best possible opening for zerg on any map, period. The benefit TLO gained from that particular map/spawn location was absolutely huge, and cannot be discounted when looking at his "counter-strategy" for mech. I seriously doubt his strategy works as well on mech-friendly maps/spawns, and that is just the way it is. His blanket statement that imbalance can always be worked around is just not true in the literal sense. Small imbalances can be worked around - large ones not so much. But I think I understand what he was trying to say, and agree with it. If marines did 100 damage a shot, you cannot work around that. But mech could be "worked around" to a degree, depending on the map. I am still very curious what the latest patch does to the matchup. All this discussion going on here is probably moot. People might be better served to focus on creating balanced maps. Edit: typo | ||
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