Day[9].tv Daily - Page 337

On June 10 2010 23:34 bb82 wrote:
Thank you Day[9] for #132. I'm still in the low 100's, but once I saw what it was labeled, I just had to watch it. It has a lot of useful information, especially for actual-noobs. But your incorrect when you imply that timings are more important than APM. And I'm NOT talking about spam APM.

First, I define an actual noob by the following: Someone that doesn't have an efficiently high constructive-APM (60-120) during critical game moments.

You make too many assumptions that are false because it is too hard for you to relate to an actual noob. I can see why your empathy is slightly lacking because you have been playing RTS or similar paced games for so many years, compared to an actual noob that has not been. But nonetheless, APM IS the deciding factor in how good you are in this game, solely because of the intense speed of the game. At least until you reach a certain point, which I feel is close to the semi-pro level, then timing becomes the key.

You seem to justify your reasoning because you can slowly click (20ish APM) for the early (up to 7ish min) part of the game. Of course this is true, even I made it to diamond following a low APM speedling/baneling 6-7ish min rush. But that is no proof that simple timings override the handicap of APM. Once the game hits the mid game, especially when you start to harass/attack/scout AND macro, you NEED to be able to at least have a constructive (60-120) apm, which you also seem to imply isn't that hard to get.

I'm sorry, but that is also completely false. Getting a constructive (60-120) apm is something that can take years of UI practicing. I could certainly train someone in how to be semi-good at this game, perhaps even to want to try to be good. But I KNOW they wont be able to play the game in a fashion that isn't arcadey, unless they have at least a constructive (60-120) apm. It would be like telling someone that doesn't have any skills with typing to go type a few chapters of a book, given only a certain amount of time that is based on how fast a decent typer could do it.

I can type very fast, as I've been doing it for years. But I am not good with function keys or the number keys with shift, esc, backspace, etc. Basically I'm not that good with this sort of UI, as many wont be, unless they have been playing similarly based games for a long time, in a speed setting atmosphere.

So although I can get my "Mom" into the game and teach her some basic timings (strategies and builds), she would soon get very discouraged at playing the game. She would soon realize that even though she knows what she wants to do, she wouldn't be able to do it at such a fast pace. I'll give you an example: I work on my BO and I know what I will do with all my number keys. I even force myself to use every shortcut, as practice. All your suggestions on practice is what I already do when I practice/play.

Here is what happens: I'm macroing while trying to scout. It usually doesn't go to well, but I try. I instinctually know that I should keep my money low, not get supply blocked, build workers (up to about 60), and constantly build units. So I'm doing that, while trying to scout/harass/attack, to pin him down and to influence what I need to build, but I can't come even close to being able to do what I know I should be doing. The speed is so fast that by the time I switch between my keys, I get very behind to the point that it no longer matters. I might be warping in some units while I hear I'm under attack. I then tap 3 twice to get to my main army casters and have a spell ready with shift held down, BUT that battle is already over.. Or I'm scouting and setup a few way points in their base and switch back to my probe that is in a control group to build a building or two and then to my other control groups to build a few workers, units, crono, and perhaps even expand. But by the time I can possible get back to my scout/harasser/core-army, it is dead or I missed the intel/mission that I needed to complete.

I'm handicapped solely by my APM, which doesn't improve as fast as you imply, it can take years to. Of course practice will help. But it is a flaw in the game that such long-term practicing, soley with the UI, is needed to be able to even start to implement basic strategies/tactics. It forces noobs to either only macro huge armies or to rely on cheese, both of which wont help you in the long run. So you are forced to treat this game as a job AND ONLY practice with improving your UI APM. Your practicing should be with improving your timings, strategies, and tactics, not with trying to break an APM handicap.

This isn't 12 years ago, people now have many gaming options with how they spend their time. Speed RTs is really starting to only appeal to a very small % of players, while also discouraging a huge pool of players that might really get into the game, if there wasn't such a handicap.

I know what I need to do, I just can't do it fast enough. Or god forbid I try to attack with 't' (grid layout) and hit 'y' instead, which can literally lose you a battle as by the time you get your units in a decent concave, you should have already tabbed and casted a spell or two.

I can see why this extreme speed would be perfect for the competitive elitist RTS/RTS-like gamers. But do you really think an actual noob that cares about strategy is likely to find that "fun" or competitive? The APM handicap is just to high at this speed, which makes this game extremely unfriendly to actual noobs. What happens with actual noobs is that the game speed minimizes any sort of strategy and gives a very arcadey feeling to the game. So as certain players will find that fun, as it doesn't take much thought, many others will be very disappointed at actually thinking there was going to be strategy involved.

Many would find this game very enjoyable at a slower speed, where they could also compete against others competitively. In this case, I would agree that timings are the biggest factor. But at the default ladder speed, APM is the overriding handicap. To say otherwise just shows a complete misunderstand of how an actual noob will perceive this game.

The speed will force a huge pool of players to permanently leave ladder play. Some will go to fastest possible maps, random custom games, UMS, or single player campaign. Most will just permanently leave SC2 and not recommend it to others. It is a complete waste, when all it would take is a slower paced league for people that aren't so hardcore, yet also like to play competitively.

I've been tinkering around with all three races and I'm starting to think my best long term option, because of my APM, is to play zerg (a race I don't enjoy) in the following manner, http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3643452/.

-bb82