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On June 11 2010 05:41 Logo wrote:
I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think the matchmaking system gives you a much larger k value (maximum amount of rating points you can gain/lose off a win) during placement. Otherwise people who 5-0 on placement matches would end up still playing people around the average hidden rating (which would be mid gold level players) or low rating (which would be bronze players) depending on implementation. Instead 5-0 puts you in diamond against diamond and high plat players, or at least used to. So it does seem that placement will swing your hidden rating more than regular matches, as clearly losing 5 diamond matches in a row won't get you all the way down to bronze level opponents.
Yeah, fair point. There's a little resiliency to the system to prevent you from, say, going 5-0, then losing a game and playing a noob, winning and playing a pro, losing and playing a noob. Those types of wild swings. So it's not quite as accurate to say that you end up at the same spot after 10-15 games, but yeah. I think the reason Blizzard chose to do this is the fatigue. For casual players, 10 games is actually a lot. It might be more SC than they'll play in 2-3 nights of playing. I think Blizzard wanted to make placement less daunting for those individuals. But you're right that it does lead to some wild variance in placements. Especially when some people just cheese every game to artificially inflate their placement.
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What do I have to do to get rid of that sidebar on blip.tv?
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On June 11 2010 07:28 Lysogen wrote:
What do I have to do to get rid of that sidebar on blip.tv?
idk ... I only watch stuff there on fullscreen
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On June 11 2010 07:28 Lysogen wrote:
What do I have to do to get rid of that sidebar on blip.tv?
try going to the episode permalink, below the video
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by sidebar you mean the vids on the right side?
stop moving your mouse, and it will go away
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obviously the beta is down, and day is doing casts still, I would love to play/use the build order tester that QXC made, how do i run it offline? I know you can view replays by dragging it onto the .exe file, same way?
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On June 11 2010 09:15 brandonc wrote:
obviously the beta is down, and day is doing casts still, I would love to play/use the build order tester that QXC made, how do i run it offline? I know you can view replays by dragging it onto the .exe file, same way?
yes
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On June 11 2010 03:57 bb82 wrote:Show nested quote +the TL;DR of what I wrote is basically, you will always find someone as slow as you and be able to win against him based on your strategy and tactics. I'm going to have to resist the urge to argue on all the points that I would like to with you. I just don't feel it would be constructive at all, especially given your extraordinary empathy towards noobs and the tone of your original post. I will add slightly to what I've already said, just to clear a few points up, then I'm moving on: 1)I understand it is very easy to win. Like I've said, I've made it to diamond and I'm a terrible player. Winning is not my overall goal. 2)Of course a person with a fast APM will still have some advantages in a slower paced ladder. But the handicap is decreased and both players are playing on a more equal footing. 3)The speed has made the game have a very dummy downed feeling, where your right, it's not that hard to catch an easy win if you minimize the APM factor by ending the game relatively quickly. But I'm not a fan of games that don't take much thought. Much is lost when you dummy down something too much and go with the whole "speed is better" philosophy. Many might find that fun, but it gets old quickly to me, hence why I started over to actual try to improve my mechanics. 4)I don't agree that them making the UI/AI more modern takes skill out of the equation and that it somehow makes the game more noob friendly. It does take some of the APM handicap out of the equation, so strategy and tactics become a bigger theme. But they completely cancel that out by actual speeding up the game and increasing attack damage so that you still need to have a uber-fast APM to handle battles that end as soon as they begin. If skill is being lost from the equation, the culprit is the speed of the game, not a more modern UI/AI. 5)I do agree that many will try the game. But that doesn't imply that they will play the game for long or that there isn't a huge pool of potential players that aren't being tapped for the long term. This game will not have lasting mass appeal, not at the current ladder speed. New blood wont be lasting, unless that new blood is already use to speed-RTs or similar based gaming. It will stay an elitist gaming community. 6)I do admit that when you do have an efficiently high APM, at least 60-120 during critical game moments, then timings and strategic elements become more of a factor. 7)You act like I want to make the game turn based or something. I'm not talking about putting another ladder on the slowest setting. I think the current "normal" speed would be appropriate. It would allow low level players (true noobs) to have fun working on their mechanics and still enjoy the strategic/tactical aspect of this game, rather than be forced to cheese or learn sloppy techniques to advance to a league that they have no business being in. The one "elite" league is NOT noob friendly. We have no business playing at that speed. It is just not appropriate. And to directly respond to the small quote above: I wont beat my "slow" opponent because of strategy and tactics. I will beat him because I attacked him first, when/where he wasn't expecting it. Since his reactions are as slow as mine, he will have a huge disadvantage at not being able to react before the crucial battle ends. Lower level games are completely random in who wins and are decided in a very archaic fashion. Yeah, 50/50, I completely agree.. -bb82
Thank you good sir, but you do not have to leave your name in every post. The forum will do this automatically for you everytime you post something.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 11 2010 09:46 Liquin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 03:57 bb82 wrote:the TL;DR of what I wrote is basically, you will always find someone as slow as you and be able to win against him based on your strategy and tactics. I'm going to have to resist the urge to argue on all the points that I would like to with you. I just don't feel it would be constructive at all, especially given your extraordinary empathy towards noobs and the tone of your original post. I will add slightly to what I've already said, just to clear a few points up, then I'm moving on: 1)I understand it is very easy to win. Like I've said, I've made it to diamond and I'm a terrible player. Winning is not my overall goal. 2)Of course a person with a fast APM will still have some advantages in a slower paced ladder. But the handicap is decreased and both players are playing on a more equal footing. 3)The speed has made the game have a very dummy downed feeling, where your right, it's not that hard to catch an easy win if you minimize the APM factor by ending the game relatively quickly. But I'm not a fan of games that don't take much thought. Much is lost when you dummy down something too much and go with the whole "speed is better" philosophy. Many might find that fun, but it gets old quickly to me, hence why I started over to actual try to improve my mechanics. 4)I don't agree that them making the UI/AI more modern takes skill out of the equation and that it somehow makes the game more noob friendly. It does take some of the APM handicap out of the equation, so strategy and tactics become a bigger theme. But they completely cancel that out by actual speeding up the game and increasing attack damage so that you still need to have a uber-fast APM to handle battles that end as soon as they begin. If skill is being lost from the equation, the culprit is the speed of the game, not a more modern UI/AI. 5)I do agree that many will try the game. But that doesn't imply that they will play the game for long or that there isn't a huge pool of potential players that aren't being tapped for the long term. This game will not have lasting mass appeal, not at the current ladder speed. New blood wont be lasting, unless that new blood is already use to speed-RTs or similar based gaming. It will stay an elitist gaming community. 6)I do admit that when you do have an efficiently high APM, at least 60-120 during critical game moments, then timings and strategic elements become more of a factor. 7)You act like I want to make the game turn based or something. I'm not talking about putting another ladder on the slowest setting. I think the current "normal" speed would be appropriate. It would allow low level players (true noobs) to have fun working on their mechanics and still enjoy the strategic/tactical aspect of this game, rather than be forced to cheese or learn sloppy techniques to advance to a league that they have no business being in. The one "elite" league is NOT noob friendly. We have no business playing at that speed. It is just not appropriate. And to directly respond to the small quote above: I wont beat my "slow" opponent because of strategy and tactics. I will beat him because I attacked him first, when/where he wasn't expecting it. Since his reactions are as slow as mine, he will have a huge disadvantage at not being able to react before the crucial battle ends. Lower level games are completely random in who wins and are decided in a very archaic fashion. Yeah, 50/50, I completely agree.. -bb82
Thank you good sir, but you do not have to leave your name in every post. The forum will do this automatically for you everytime you post something.
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Tripple post now, sorry, was trying to edit my first post with the huge wall of text! once again, I'm deeply sorry!
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On June 11 2010 09:15 brandonc wrote:
obviously the beta is down, and day is doing casts still, I would love to play/use the build order tester that QXC made, how do i run it offline? I know you can view replays by dragging it onto the .exe file, same way?
Open any custom map (including qxc) in the StarCraft editor and press the Test Document button (little arrow thing) or Ctrl-F9.
edit: didn't know about the drag thing though... :D
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After your successful storytelling are you planning on doing a day9 audio skit?
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so how many accounts named Timmy should i expect to see when the beta starts again?
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Dear ThoughtHammer, good stuff
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On January 29 2010 12:39 HawaiianPig wrote:![[image loading]](http://hawaiianpig.pfordee.com/freepornxxx/reavers.png)
Man i wish you still did SC Casts 
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JUST DON'T TURN RIGHT MAN JUST DON'T TURN RIGHT
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Dear lovely loveling Day[9],
what do you think about a Day9daily in which you talk about the evolution of strategy throughout the beta?
Something like this: you discuss a specific matchup (zvp for example) and show how the matchup changed. what changes were caused by patches and which by players' experience?( I remember that there had been several topics on tl.net about the imbalance of the queens larva injection before beta was released).
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United States7166 Posts
I'd like to explain WTF happened since many who saw it are wondering some things
And if you left in the middle of the Daily, only watching 1 or both of the starting fail games (and I fear some may have done this!), I'm embarrassed and also a bit sad that you didn't get to watch the good following replays
Concerning the Day[9] Daily #134 - Mass Queens in ZvZ
Why did you send him some poor replays along with the decent ones?
Patch 16 made the patch 15/16 replays un-watchable, so I was unable to know which game was which, nor watch them. Also, I found out that he was going to do a Daily on this topic about 10 mins before the livecast. Although I knew he was going to do a daily on it eventually, I had NO idea he'd do it today, especially not with the 1 replay of the game we had on ladder that was, IMO, a poor exhibition of mass queens. (I was going to send the good replays after a Patch-15-Rep-Fix was found) So with 5 mins left before he went Live, I messaged him and found out he just got a program to load up the patch 15 replays, and so I just sent the entire replay session, and he aired random ones without being able to watch any beforehand.
Explain how those first 2 replays that Day showed, happened?
First you gotta understand, Dimaga and I had already practiced 50+ ZvZ's for World Cup and already both knew how strong queens were in ZvZ. The key of this practice session was not to test the strength of queens, but rather to find a strong build that made them a very strong choice, or the BEST choice, on that map. As you can guess and can see, the biggest vulnerabilities is the early game and trying to protect your expansion+main. Fast banelings, zerglings, any sort of aggression are all valid concerns and 1 slipup, or if you ever leave ramp to Spawn Larva, speedlings can instantly zip up and win the game.
We quickly found out that if the 1 base-ing (Dimaga) player simply gets an expansion quickly enough without being pressured early, he can easily fend off the queen attack with mass spines + mutas. So the key is not only to defend early game but also to prevent the other from expanding properly, and what timings and manner to do it.
In game 1, I focused so much on defense (dimaga is probably the scariest aggressive zerg I've ever seen, you didn't get to really see it in those replays but the others he kept raping me with excellent zergling use or muta use), that I forgot to make a roach warren so it was really pointless to continue as now he could FREELY expand and easily hold the expo with mass spines.
In game 2, my timing for roaches were way too late, and his muta timing surprised me as well. I don't remember exactly why it was so late, perhaps a mistake from me or perhaps just did not understand the timing. And once I was unable to kill the expo, yet again we knew he could defend the queens and so we just restarted.
What happened in games 3&4?
Game 3: This time Dimaga made the mistakes and tried to expo way too quickly, and my roaches this time were on time and able to quickly crush it, and also get some drones. He also loses a few mutas while trying to harass. Given these circumstances it was very easy to win with Queens.
Game 4: This is the final game we played, I played the best I'd done so far and had all the timings down very well, and covered any vulnerabilities in defense. He also played fairly well and yet was unable to really do much to me. My roaches and timing gave him quite a scare and did a bit of damage too, as going by what he could see, he had no idea roaches were coming until I started sending them out. This delayed his expo enough and my build was going strong and so that cleanly put me in a great position.
Does this work on maps other than Steppes of War?
First I'd like to say that I don't think this is the strongest build when both players fast expo, though some variant is still scary. It's ideally used vs 1 base openings.
The timing attack push I imagine will work fine on close positions LT/Metal, as well as Scrap Station. However scrap station would require a totally different opening as 2 queens cannot block the ramp, so you'd probably need to get very fast baneling (after expo), or possibly roach but that seems weaker and harder to defend. However most good zergs will fast expo on Scrap anyway, if not then break down the rocks later and do a similar push. Hard to defend his expo if he by then has one up. But we only tested this on Steppes so this is mostly just speculation.
What makes Queens such effective attacking units?
Consider the stats. 175 HP, 1 armor, 4 (x2) Ground damage, 9 Air damage (long range!), both with decent firing rates. Receives same upgrades as roaches/hydras. NOT Armored! nor Light! (hydras get RAAAPED by banelings!) 150 minerals, ZERO gas! An antiair unit costing zero gas for zerg, can you understand how important that is. Excellent Transfusion spell, and with large numbers, and @ 50 Energy, you can cast it SOOOO many times. Creep tumor synergizes nicely, and you can Spawn Larvae with a newly made queen RIGHT as it pops, which is almost perfect spawn larvae timing. And only requires spawning pool, doesnt use larvae to morph, zerg's only early game anti-air is now an effective antiair unit.
But what are the drawbacks of Queens?
You cannot make them from larvae, you can only build them up gradually and also cannot upgrade to Lair while doing so. They move almost as slow as Overlords when off of creep, and on creep are still the slowest ground zerg unit. If you accidentally lose some of them, you're kind of screwed as you have to slowly rebuild them. If zerg ever gets enough mutas, it's basically impossible to use Transfusion if he focuses them down almost instantly. They stop attacking for a bit when casting Transfusion. In the mid-late or late game, with multiple expos from both players, the queens immobility makes them horrible for both defending and being
What are the ideal defenses to combat this mass queen/roach timing attack?
MASSSSS spines (zerglings are horrible, banelings horrible, roaches weak due to transfusion support), along with preferrably mass mutalisk support. Playing the 1 baseing player style that Dimaga did is certainly no easy task, you must have strong timings, especially when to drone and make units, good control.
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On June 11 2010 12:03 Knutzi wrote:
so how many accounts named Timmy should i expect to see when the beta starts again?
Alot dude Alot*gets chills*
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EPT
