EPTA big draw of SC2 is that it's real-time and as part of that it has a fast pace that causes surges of adrenalin. If we didn't have those surges SC2 would be a lot less satisfying to play, it's not that it'd be shallow or anything, it's just that we like the extra tension and requirement of having tons of adrenalin to deal with. On top of that you wouldn't have the dynamic of mental fatigue that causes players to make mistakes and lose focus which really opens up variety in how matches play out.
Day[9].tv Daily - Page 338
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
A big draw of SC2 is that it's real-time and as part of that it has a fast pace that causes surges of adrenalin. If we didn't have those surges SC2 would be a lot less satisfying to play, it's not that it'd be shallow or anything, it's just that we like the extra tension and requirement of having tons of adrenalin to deal with. On top of that you wouldn't have the dynamic of mental fatigue that causes players to make mistakes and lose focus which really opens up variety in how matches play out. | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
On June 11 2010 00:28 matko5 wrote: DEAR DAY 220 pounds is not too heavy for a 6'3'' person! : ))) If it makes you feel better, you have a whole inch on me and we're about the same weight. If you really want to lose weight, just ditch the junk food, sweets and sodas (I see you drink green tea, thats AWESOME). How do you work out? Are you more of a cardio bunny or a weight lifter? Unfortunately, Day9 requires a constant diet of strawberry cheesecake danish pastries to survive, or he lacks the creative juices to produce Day9 Dailies  | ||
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EvilSky
Czech Republic548 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1978 Posts
On June 11 2010 03:13 EvilSky wrote: Day can you go back to BW vods while the beta is off for us weirdos who still like BW better? Unfortunately, Day has completely given up on BW; I recall him saying "and who plays BW anymore?" during one of his casts (the MSL finals? Can't remember.) | ||
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EvilSky
Czech Republic548 Posts
On June 11 2010 03:21 Garrl wrote: Unfortunately, Day has completely given up on BW; I recall him saying "and who plays BW anymore?" during one of his casts (the MSL finals? Can't remember.) Did he? thats it, Im boycotting Day and giving him a 1 star rating on amazon -.- | ||
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Shaman.us
United States319 Posts
On June 11 2010 03:21 Garrl wrote: Unfortunately, Day has completely given up on BW; I recall him saying "and who plays BW anymore?" during one of his casts (the MSL finals? Can't remember.) I'm sure it's impossible that he was just joking. | ||
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bb82
United States33 Posts
the TL;DR of what I wrote is basically, you will always find someone as slow as you and be able to win against him based on your strategy and tactics. I'm going to have to resist the urge to argue on all the points that I would like to with you. I just don't feel it would be constructive at all, especially given your extraordinary empathy towards noobs and the tone of your original post. I will add slightly to what I've already said, just to clear a few points up, then I'm moving on: 1)I understand it is very easy to win. Like I've said, I've made it to diamond and I'm a terrible player. Winning is not my overall goal. 2)Of course a person with a fast APM will still have some advantages in a slower paced ladder. But the handicap is decreased and both players are playing on a more equal footing. 3)The speed has made the game have a very dummy downed feeling, where your right, it's not that hard to catch an easy win if you minimize the APM factor by ending the game relatively quickly. But I'm not a fan of games that don't take much thought. Much is lost when you dummy down something too much and go with the whole "speed is better" philosophy. Many might find that fun, but it gets old quickly to me, hence why I started over to actual try to improve my mechanics. 4)I don't agree that them making the UI/AI more modern takes skill out of the equation and that it somehow makes the game more noob friendly. It does take some of the APM handicap out of the equation, so strategy and tactics become a bigger theme. But they completely cancel that out by actual speeding up the game and increasing attack damage so that you still need to have a uber-fast APM to handle battles that end as soon as they begin. If skill is being lost from the equation, the culprit is the speed of the game, not a more modern UI/AI. 5)I do agree that many will try the game. But that doesn't imply that they will play the game for long or that there isn't a huge pool of potential players that aren't being tapped for the long term. This game will not have lasting mass appeal, not at the current ladder speed. New blood wont be lasting, unless that new blood is already use to speed-RTs or similar based gaming. It will stay an elitist gaming community. 6)I do admit that when you do have an efficiently high APM, at least 60-120 during critical game moments, then timings and strategic elements become more of a factor. 7)You act like I want to make the game turn based or something. I'm not talking about putting another ladder on the slowest setting. I think the current "normal" speed would be appropriate. It would allow low level players (true noobs) to have fun working on their mechanics and still enjoy the strategic/tactical aspect of this game, rather than be forced to cheese or learn sloppy techniques to advance to a league that they have no business being in. The one "elite" league is NOT noob friendly. We have no business playing at that speed. It is just not appropriate. And to directly respond to the small quote above: I wont beat my "slow" opponent because of strategy and tactics. I will beat him because I attacked him first, when/where he wasn't expecting it. Since his reactions are as slow as mine, he will have a huge disadvantage at not being able to react before the crucial battle ends. Lower level games are completely random in who wins and are decided in a very archaic fashion. Yeah, 50/50, I completely agree.. -bb82 | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
[QUOTE] And to directly respond to the small quote above: I wont beat my "slow" opponent because of strategy and tactics. I will beat him because I attacked him first, when/where he wasn't expecting it. Since his reactions are as slow as mine, he will have a huge disadvantage at not being able to react before the crucial battle ends. Lower level games are completely random in who wins and are decided in a very archaic fashion. Yeah, 50/50, I completely agree.. -bb82[/QUOTE] That's actually roughly true. What's your point though? At the end of the day, our play is still a choice. Those "noobs" can go into every game repeating the same mistakes and remain in their current leagues, or they can work to refine their understanding of the game and progress to tougher oppenents. That refinement will in turn increase their APM. In your case, you can continue to post about your low APM, or you can work to improve it. It's a choice. I'm not suggesting that you've made a wrong choice, but certainly an illogical one. | ||
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bb82
United States33 Posts
And I will be working on improving my APM. In some ways that has nothing to do with my "rants", but in other ways it has everything to do with them. It just shouldn't be necessary. There should be a slower league for a huge group of potential players like me, where practicing has more to do with working on strategies and tactics. I feel like I'm trying to argue with a hungry bear that sees a dear with a bloody broken leg. Noobs just don't have a place in this community. I spoke my peace and I must move on. -bb82 | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On June 11 2010 04:15 bb82 wrote: My whole point is that the setup of the ladder, which any competitive player would play in, noob or not, will not promote lasting mass appeal. It will spit "true noobs" out soon after they try the game, solely because the speed is way too much for them to handle. It is just not an appropriate speed for many players, for a variety of reasons. -bb82 Most players will be Bronze/Silver level. As they play more, and the system recognizes their skill level, they' be accurately placed against appropriate difficulty level opponents. At that point, one of two things will happen: 1) They'll practice on the things that make them a weak player and gradually improve their gameplay and get promoted; 2) They won't practice on the things that make them a weak player and instead log onto various forums complaining about their weaknesses, thus continuing to remain in the same league, facing the same difficulty opponents. In either case, they'll be participating in competitive matches whenever they log onto Battle.net. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
There is tons of content for people from 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s to challenge maps, to UMS, to the single player. The players that feel like they can't 1v1 ladder have plenty to do. On top of that all those other modes prepare players for 1v1 so they can feel comfortable playing it. Players with low APM can get all the way to diamond (approx. top 10%-20% of players) so what's the problem? How in the world is it possibly a problem that you can be better than 90% of all people, but that last 10% requires you to be fluent in the game and its UI? Just look at this thread: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25171934152&sid=5000&pageNo=2 SO many plat/diamons with low APM. The tl;dr; version of your argument sounds a lot like: I should be able to be pro without trying, so APM should be nerfed so I can compete. -or- I don't think my APM will ever be high so it should be nerfed so I can be pro. I'm pretty confident that my APM isn't going to increase too much more (90-120 average in game time) because I'm a grandpa according to Day9. You don't see me complaining about it though. I'm just gonna give it my best shot and see where it takes me. | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
On June 11 2010 03:13 EvilSky wrote: Day can you go back to BW vods while the beta is off for us weirdos who still like BW better? In my honest opinion, once Starcraft 2 ships, BW is dead. Everyone who has a key (well, most people) are playing Sc2. Why learn about a 10 year old legend when you can learn about the legend in the making? Even if the game does suck, there will be stories about it for generations to come..(cough, boycott) | ||
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SLTorak.Hobo
Canada67 Posts
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On June 11 2010 04:27 Logo wrote: So what? There is tons of content for people from 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s to challenge maps, to UMS, to the single player. The players that feel like they can't 1v1 ladder have plenty to do. On top of that all those other modes prepare players for 1v1 so they can feel comfortable playing it. Players with low APM can get all the way to diamond (approx. top 10%-20% of players) so what's the problem? How in the world is it possibly a problem that you can be better than 90% of all people, but that last 10% requires you to be fluent in the game and its UI? Just look at this thread: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25171934152&sid=5000&pageNo=2 SO many plat/diamons with low APM. The tl;dr; version of your argument sounds a lot like: I should be able to be pro without trying, so APM should be nerfed so I can compete. -or- I don't think my APM will ever be high so it should be nerfed so I can be pro. I'm pretty confident that my APM isn't going to increase too much more (90-120 average in game time) because I'm a grandpa according to Day9. You don't see me complaining about it though. I'm just gonna give it my best shot and see where it takes me. this man hits the nail so squarely on the head, well, the fuckin nail must have gone ALL the way in. | ||
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Oathmaster
Canada81 Posts
On June 11 2010 04:52 TheAntZ wrote: this man hits the nail so squarely on the head, well, the fuckin nail must have gone ALL the way in. That must have been painful then  But for my prespective when I had first gotten into the beta, I would consider myself a complete noob. I had played various number of RTS games but never to the point or considered trying any competitively until StarCraft II and hearing about how StarCraft 1 was a big E-Sports game. That was then I decided to aim for something bigger coming into the beta :D I played my first few games, I was completely noob, and even in team games without even knowing about any of the aspect of playing SC II even decently I felt embarrassed needless to say, espesally when in a practice match I'm trying to deal with reaper harass and void ray rushes when I only gotten a small handful of units. The game is fast paced and because of it is incredibly intimidating, but that is also it's appeal as well for it is so much more intense and rewarding when you win your games, even then like one of Day9 daily 115, if your bringing friends into the RTS world for the first time, or even Starcraft II, just have them play against each other, at slightly lower speed settings if you have to, to get them used to how the game plays and then gradually migrate them over into the actual ladders once their ready. There are a lot of ways to help new players out, and one shouldn't necessarily jump into ladders heedlessly unless your that type of competitive player in the beginning. In the end though I'm still intimidated with the ladder system but it does work well for what it's suppose to do. My only issue with it really is the lack of placement matches, which I hope is increased once we get to live release. | ||
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mister.bubbles
Canada171 Posts
The song I used was Long Story short by Black Milk over Daily #132. Either that or don't mute Sean and play music that has a huge feeling of building up to make the video feel really dramatic. | ||
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
On June 11 2010 05:26 Oathmaster wrote: That must have been painful then But for my prespective when I had first gotten into the beta, I would consider myself a complete noob. I had played various number of RTS games but never to the point or considered trying any competitively until StarCraft II and hearing about how StarCraft 1 was a big E-Sports game. That was then I decided to aim for something bigger coming into the beta :D I played my first few games, I was completely noob, and even in team games without even knowing about any of the aspect of playing SC II even decently I felt embarrassed needless to say, espesally when in a practice match I'm trying to deal with reaper harass and void ray rushes when I only gotten a small handful of units. The game is fast paced and because of it is incredibly intimidating, but that is also it's appeal as well, and even then like one of Day9 older dailies, if your bringing friends into the RTS world for the first time, or even Starcraft II, just have em play against each other, at slightly lower speed settings if you have to, to get them used to how the game plays and then gradually migrate them over into the actual ladders once their ready. There are a lot of ways to help new players out, and one shouldn't necessarily jump into ladders heedlessly unless your that type of competitive player in the beginning. In the end though I'm still intimidated with the ladder system but it does work well for what it's suppose to do. My only issue with it really is the lack of placement matches, which I hope is increased once we get to live release. They probably should increase the number of placement matches. But it's worth noting that even if you get placed wrong, you'll start playing people more your skill level just as quickly as if they had more placement matches. Your league might not change right away, but the system learns who to match you up against just as fast if they place you after 5 games than if they place you after 15. It's just that your visible indication of league won't be as accurate as it would otherwise be. In other words, if you fluke your way to a Diamond ranking but you're really a Bronze player, then you first 5 games were wins, and then your next 5 are losses. You're still in Diamond, but the game now knows it mis-seeded you, and it's finding people low enough to match your skill level. So after say 10-15 games you're really playing Bronze players, but you still show as in Diamond. At some point your re-evaluation comes due and it bumps you from Diamond to Bronze. Then all seems right in the world. It works the same way coming up, also. If you get mis-seeded low, it'll find out soon enough that you need to be playing Diamond players and it'll slot you against them. If you hold your own against them, then it'll move you up when your evaluation comes up. | ||
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Oathmaster
Canada81 Posts
 But you make a good point otherwise, the match making system does it's job well one way or the other | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
Basically what bb82 wants is EVERYONE ELSE to be less skilled and slower so he can remain in his current state yet still feel at the top of the game. He is pretty much making weird arbitrary conditions suited for just him - a "serious" slow 1v1 ladder, yet not a novice map. With this kind of attitude he pretty much can never get good. | ||
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