On June 10 2010 05:30 CruelZeratul wrote: Could someone give me a link to the game of Bisu vs. kanada (??) Day9 mentioned, I just didn't really get the name and map correctly (or only give me the proper name and mapname^^).
I'm guessing the player is Canata but I don't know the game that you're on about.
Haha, thanks for the feedback, but extra Hatcheries aren't the issue. A common scenario would be 3 base/4 Hatch...the issue becomes that other than lings, I can't build any additional units. I could have a 100 hatcheries and that wouldn't change. Granted, I've been mostly using a ling/bling/Hydra/Infester (sometimes Ultra...) army and I'll probably switch up my composition in the future to something less gas heavy.
On June 10 2010 05:30 CruelZeratul wrote: Could someone give me a link to the game of Bisu vs. kanada (??) Day9 mentioned, I just didn't really get the name and map correctly (or only give me the proper name and mapname^^).
I'm guessing the player is Canata but I don't know the game that you're on about.
Artosis usually will add 2 extra hatcheries in his main late game. The reasoning being that when the toss or terran player rolls over your 200/200 army, you can be back at 200/200 before they even get up to you base.
On June 10 2010 06:10 k!llua wrote: Anyone have a direct link for the standard def versions of the day9? Don't really want to download 1gb each day if I can help it.
On June 10 2010 04:34 Liquid.Genesis wrote: Day[9], on checklists. Day's mom: "What do you want for dinner" Day: "Make probes" Day's mom: "But there aren't any in the pantry" Day: "More supply" Day's mom: "Why don't we go out for dinner" Day: "Money low" Day's mom: "Ok, I'll just make mac n cheese" Day: "Chronoboost the microwave"
hahahahah funny xD
oh god, now I'm going to have this type of stuff stuck in my head.
I already think to myself about how everything is, "The most normal thing in the world" because of day9.
I think the arguments that TLO had concerning the so called imbalance pre tank nerf are very sound. It's the same arguments I heard from Lz aswell. Alot of players just wouldn't accept that they might have to do something out of the ordinary roach/hydra outmacro style to beat someone.
On June 10 2010 06:10 k!llua wrote: Anyone have a direct link for the standard def versions of the day9? Don't really want to download 1gb each day if I can help it.
hd ain't up yet
Day9 131 was like 500mb: 132 is about 930mb.
All the other versions of the daily I've downloaded have been around the 500mb mark, which is why I'm asking :o
edit
nvm, apparently 132 goes for almost two hours. that'd explain the length.
On June 10 2010 06:36 gillon wrote: I think the arguments that TLO had concerning the so called imbalance pre tank nerf are very sound. It's the same arguments I heard from Lz aswell. Alot of players just wouldn't accept that they might have to do something out of the ordinary roach/hydra outmacro style to beat someone.
According to TLO nothing is imbalance as there is always a way around said imbalance to achieve victory. Don't you think that logic is flawed?
Imbalance does not equal unbeatable! I believe blizzard should stop patching / collecting data on balance.... why not right?
IMO It requires far more skills to win against mech as a zerg player than it is on the part of terran who is using mech. Herein lies the problem. A truly balance match up is where both players are starting on equal grounds - both have to work equally hard to achieve victory.
--- Let me give you an example. Everyone in the wc3 community knows that the orc race is severely overpowered. Yet some Orc players refute these claims. They say "they are more talented then their opponents" and that other races should adopt or find some way of winning rather then complaining.
Well I mean that in a player perspective. so if you are playing a game you should NEVER think about imbalance. Outside of the game if something is broken you can voice your concerns. But as long as you are playing you should only think about your own mistakes. Because it makes more sense to say: "I could have beaten this guy IF I would have done this and this", than crying "imba siege tanks fuck this shit is broken"
(I still think TvZ isn't imbalanced)
Also it takes months to figure out if something is truly imbalanced, or if the right strategy to counter it just was not found yet. The most prominent example for this is the Terran metal build against Zerg in Broodwar, that dominated for months but then completely disappeared again, without any kind of balance change
That is the reason why I think that now the big obvious flaws are out of the way they should slow down the patching way down. Even if some strategy seems imbalanced it can take months to find the proper one to deal with it. I may go even as far as say that they should have patched slower during the beta.
On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote: Well I mean that in a player perspective. so if you are playing a game you should NEVER think about imbalance. Outside of the game if something is broken you can voice your concerns. But as long as you are playing you should only think about your own mistakes. Because it makes more sense to say: "I could have beaten this guy IF I would have done this and this", than crying "imba siege tanks fuck this shit is broken"
(I still think TvZ isn't imbalanced)
Also it takes months to figure out if something is truly imbalanced, or if the right strategy to counter it just was not found yet. The most prominent example for this is the Terran metal build against Zerg in Broodwar, that dominated for months but then completely disappeared again, without any kind of balance change
Following the trend of your daily have you ever thought of using overlords as ultralisk guns? Like, you're doing all these drops and then just leaving all your ultralisks to die as the thors soak up shots for tanks. I've had the most success picking them back up and dropping them onto the tanks. There were definitely a lot of situations where ultralisks only lost because they were walled off by a factory or a thor and had to spend most of their 500 hp time running instead of putting the hurt on.
I mostly started using the ultra drops when terrans just got pissed at all the drops and just balled up everything and A-moved. This when was ultras did 100% splash damage and it was total carnage.
On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote: Well I mean that in a player perspective.
During beta you're not a player, you're a tester. Testers are supposed to think about everything that could be a problem for players. If you're trying every possible strategy you can think of against a particular strategy (Terran mech in this case) and still coming up short, then that's an imbalance. If you have to be incredibly more skilled then your opponent to beat their strategy, that's an imbalance. If you have to get Infestors and Neural Parasite their entire army just to beat them, that's an imbalance on both sides. Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester.
On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote: Well I mean that in a player perspective.
During beta you're not a player, you're a tester. Testers are supposed to think about everything that could be a problem for players. If you're trying every possible strategy you can think of against a particular strategy (Terran mech in this case) and still coming up short, then that's an imbalance. If you have to be incredibly more skilled then your opponent to beat their strategy, that's an imbalance. If you have to get Infestors and Neural Parasite their entire army just to beat them, that's an imbalance on both sides. Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester.
No its not. Its way easier to 4 pool someone in brood war than it is to stop it - this doesn't make it imbalanced.
isn't it the job of the tester to determine whether or not blizzard needs to patch something? It seems like time is better spent determining whether a build can be balanced out without blizzard's intervention as opposed to waiting for blizzard to fix it
On June 10 2010 04:34 Liquid.Genesis wrote: Day[9], on checklists. Day's mom: "What do you want for dinner" Day: "Make probes" Day's mom: "But there aren't any in the pantry" Day: "More supply" Day's mom: "Why don't we go out for dinner" Day: "Money low" Day's mom: "Ok, I'll just make mac n cheese" Day: "Chronoboost the microwave"
On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote: Well I mean that in a player perspective. so if you are playing a game you should NEVER think about imbalance. Outside of the game if something is broken you can voice your concerns. But as long as you are playing you should only think about your own mistakes. Because it makes more sense to say: "I could have beaten this guy IF I would have done this and this", than crying "imba siege tanks fuck this shit is broken"
(I still think TvZ isn't imbalanced)
Also it takes months to figure out if something is truly imbalanced, or if the right strategy to counter it just was not found yet. The most prominent example for this is the Terran metal build against Zerg in Broodwar, that dominated for months but then completely disappeared again, without any kind of balance change
I think gunman said it pretty well.
But sure, it might take a few months to find the right counter to something that's perceived to be imbalanced. But that doesn't mean the initial strat of our Terran mech player can't be slightly modified to then 1-up the Zerg (which is usually the hallmark of a good RTS that has plenty of elbow room to evolve, but not if the T is having a really easy time adjusting to what a Z sweats gallons over--I could be wrong though).
Like in the next game Jinro will have a mental note: -don't lose SCVs to fungal growth. -be able to switch to marauders when the ultralisks come out, but still maintain decent tank and thor numbers. -get a couple vikings out to push overlords away from spreading creep up to my front door.
What would you do if he had 20 marauders and 3-4 vikings mixed in with that mech composition? As Day9 pointed out, you really had to sac a bunch of units just to do a little bit of damage. He wasn't as aggressive as he could've been. His mid-game push never really happened. You had the time and stress-free environment to tech up, secure your expansions, and hammer him continuously off 5-base. Not the norm, I'd say.
I think the advantage Terran players have is how powerful a strategy consisting of "a little bit of everything" really is. Hellions to kill the lings. Vikings to repel the overlords. Thor to repel mutas (and as general firepower). Marauders for those ultras.
The real question is in stopping T's next phase of development: biomech.
On June 10 2010 07:40 TheLittleOne wrote: Well I mean that in a player perspective.
During beta you're not a player, you're a tester. Testers are supposed to think about everything that could be a problem for players. If you're trying every possible strategy you can think of against a particular strategy (Terran mech in this case) and still coming up short, then that's an imbalance. If you have to be incredibly more skilled then your opponent to beat their strategy, that's an imbalance. If you have to get Infestors and Neural Parasite their entire army just to beat them, that's an imbalance on both sides. Stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a tester.
No its not. Its way easier to 4 pool someone in brood war than it is to stop it - this doesn't make it imbalanced.
you are wrong in comparing 4pool to standard play.
5pool is an all-in which carriers HUGE consequences if the zerg is not able to finish the game right then and there. PLUS It is also viable only, and only on very small distance two player maps. Thus it is not a strategy, but rather a cheese with arguably limited / tiny success, with much higher failure rate ratio to be called imbalance.
EPT
