EPTNext Balance Patch: Reinstating Transform Up.4 HB - Page 5
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
BigAsia
Canada451 Posts
| ||
|
Jumonji
France60 Posts
| ||
|
ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 22 2013 04:43 Bagi wrote: How is it obvious? They are slow, clumsy and easily outmicroed by any ranged unit, they should pack a punch for them even to be worth building. Every nerf to hellbats is a nerf to mech and more mass drop bio play in every MU. The unit needs to be good for mech to remain viable. Their speed is normal, just like tanks, you can't expect them to be as fast as hellions lol. And yeah they seem too good for their price - 30 Aoe damage vs. light is quite insane for 100 mineral unit. | ||
|
Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:30 MoonCricket wrote: Because even tho' Airtoss is really, really good at the moment, it's no where near as over powered and meta warping as the Hellbat was for TvZ and TvT. I think balancing PvZ Airtoss may be as simple as re-adding Scourge to chase down Mass Tempests. Adding a unit when there's 10 days of beta left. A very simple process. | ||
|
Jumonji
France60 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:32 BigAsia wrote: Honestly this change seriously sucks. Every strong early game push is virtually nerfed, now people are also calling for reaper nerfs and speed boost nerfs. So basically u want to be able to turtle up for 30 minutes and have 1 deathball clash and the game is over. Fun game I agree with you, i feel the reaper timing is interesting now, not oo overpowered nor bad, a good player can take a few drones and disturb the zerg concentration wich is a good thing  | ||
|
Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:16 FancyCaTSC2 wrote: Sorry but isn't incredibly skilled players abusing the shit out of units to achieve magical stuff exactly what people expect to see? What exactly can a defending player do against a skilled player using the speed boost to the utmost, These medivacs zoom across the map, zoom past static defense and then can pick up and zoom out without any loss then repeat. The defending player can negate most of the damage from a single drop but the fact that it happens over and over and over with minimal loss will wear down the defender and give the aggressor total map control with a large advantage in resources and tech. the reason I proposed an energy cost to the booster is so that, with energy, the medivacs can continue to do what they do and let good players do awsome drops but they'll eventually run out of gas which gives the defender oppertunity to ward off as much as possible and then exploit the vulnerability when they are out of energy to create more dynamic, back and forth gameplay where BOTH players can wow us with their skill. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case | ||
|
Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
@Zelniq: Zerg units (or units in general) arent supposed to be effective vs Mech. I dont see an issue since a good mixture and cleverly used units still beat mech. Vipers are more than awesome and revert this so much that mech seems to be very bad vs a good viper+X composition. | ||
|
aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:38 ALPINA wrote: Their speed is normal, just like tanks, you can't expect them to be as fast as hellions lol. And yeah they seem too good for their price - 30 Aoe damage vs. light is quite insane for 100 mineral unit. At one point, you could consider 2.25 movement speed normal, back when maps were tiny and whatnot. Now, if the speed isn't 2.75 or above, it's a really slow unit. Think about how much Zergs complained about hydras being 2.25 off creep. Hellbats are slow, bottom line. | ||
|
aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:44 Zelniq wrote: Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected.. From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case Classic Zelniq. Early game TvZ was being fixed. They just now committed to breaking it again. | ||
|
Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 22 2013 04:45 Empirimancer wrote: Yes, let's bring ZvT back to WOL status where Zergs can macro freely off three bases for 15 minutes with practically no fear of dying. No, let's get back to the early WOL status where every Zerg lose the game in the first 10 minutes? On February 22 2013 04:08 T.O.P wrote: ghost snipe or the nuke time shoud be buff. Ghost is not a really good 3 tier units compare to the others.The hellbat change, i don't really like but i'll try to get over it haha. Maybe because Ghost isn't tier 3 unit at all? And I love how Terran players are still whining about the Oracles, but when one Banshee come into my base and I don't have the Spore Crawler, it is all nice and dandy. You need one turret per base to shut down 1-2 Oracles, and Oracles are 150/150/3 units, or you need 1 Mine for 1 Oracle. | ||
|
ant-1
Canada149 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:44 Tppz! wrote: Couldnt they revert the changes of the previous patch now? I mean the issue of a early Hellbatdrop wont be there since it comes 2 minutes later. It does not come two minutes later, you still can produce Hellbats once you fielded an armory, you just cannot transform them to hellion and back. This nerf needs to stay. | ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:44 Zelniq wrote: Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected.. From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case This is not my experience at all. I find Swarm Hosts, Ultralisk or Hydra/Roach supported by Vipers to be very effective vs Mech. I mean, sure, your Vipers are going to die eventually to Mines and Vikings, but not before they land their Clouds. And once they land them, basically whole Terran army gets overrun. It's absolutely ok for Zerg to sacrifice Vipers in exchange for gas heavy Tanks and Thors, which rebuild slowly. You need only 1 good engagement and then it snowballs from there. Also, Vipers can pull all Vikings into Hydras (you have to pull as many as possible at the same time, no one by one) and then you have free reign over mech army. I really find Vipers more then enough to support ground Zerg army. You don't have to go for Broodlords now (which sucks anyways in Hots). | ||
|
emc
United States3088 Posts
| ||
|
nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:30 MoonCricket wrote: Because even tho' Airtoss is really, really good at the moment, it's no where near as over powered and meta warping as the Hellbat was for TvZ and TvT. I think balancing PvZ Airtoss may be as simple as re-adding Scourge to chase down Mass Tempests. I would love it if they actually added scourge. Not only would it help out ZvP, but it would make watching ZvZ x100 times more exciting (considering the new muta). | ||
|
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:44 Zelniq wrote: Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected.. From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case It is a balance perspective. You're merely arguing that Zerg ground isn't strong enough to beat mech. And that's perfectly fine to bring up. Haha TL and the "no balance whine" policy, making people take useless precautions since 2001. | ||
|
Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:50 ant-1 wrote: It does not come two minutes later, you still can produce Hellbats once you fielded an armory, you just cannot transform them to hellion and back. This nerf needs to stay. So it comes 1 minute + X later if you do it that way. You need to produce 4 Hellbats which takes 2*30 if you have a reactored factory. But since you dont have the hellbats at the other side of the map (like with the "old 4 hellbat drop") you need more time for picking up the hellbat and moving them over the map. So it would come like 80 seconds later than the old drop. That aint 2 minutes but still plenty of time. On February 22 2013 05:56 emc wrote: I don't understand, why don't they just nerf hellbat damage and make blue flame give back that damage to hellbats? This way you can still transform your hellbats but they aren't nearly as strong until you get BF, seems much more reasonable. Because it needs those stats it has right now because of TvP Mech. If the Hellbat would be a transformed Hellion Mech would suck even more. It is needed so Mech TvP is at least playable. | ||
|
ant-1
Canada149 Posts
On February 22 2013 06:07 Tppz! wrote: So it comes 1 minute + X later if you do it that way. You need to produce 4 Hellbats which takes 2*30 if you have a reactored factory. But since you dont have the hellbats at the other side of the map (like with the "old 4 hellbat drop") you need more time for picking up the hellbat and moving them over the map. So it would come like 80 seconds later than the old drop. That aint 2 minutes but still plenty of time. I see your point. Yes, it slows the OhMyGod4Hellions-NO-HELLBATS-AtMyFrontDoor! I guess it's doing what's intended then | ||
|
n0ise
3452 Posts
also, about the lategame mech - it's a powerful composition, but in comparison to zerg, you can't durdle around with 2 base allins, muta play, random harasses, and still have that 'deathball' up at 18:00 mins like nothing happened. it's a specific style with it's weaknesses. | ||
|
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:56 emc wrote: I don't understand, why don't they just nerf hellbat damage and make blue flame give back that damage to hellbats? This way you can still transform your hellbats but they aren't nearly as strong until you get BF, seems much more reasonable. because you have to look at more matchups than just ZvT | ||
| ||
