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On February 12 2013 02:45 Zelniq wrote:
A year ago, I'd really been hoping they'd rework the colossus in HotS. IMO it's the unit that holds back the Protoss matchups the most (once the colossus/army count gets high enough, it all but forces all races to go air, making the matchups very 1-dimensional and stale).
I honestly feel this way too - I know there have always been people unhappy with the Colossus but I really think more pro players should've made a stink about it. Combining the Void Ray and Pheonix changes, it really seems like the Colossus has been forced out of the equation in PvP which is fine by me, but it gives them some space to actually do a good redesign of the unit if they wanted. It also seems in nearly all match-ups the VR and Pheonix changes combined with the infestor nerf have made a hard counter unit like the Tempest useless.
As to the suggested changes for the Hellbat, I honestly think they're good changes.
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On February 12 2013 02:36 Dingodile wrote:
larvas and eggs should be immune vs fire attacks. They die almost as drones.
agreed, Huskystarcraft actually had some commentary on this in one of his recent videos. 3-attack Hellbats will 1-shot Larva, and I'd assume 2-shot them without upgrades.
considering the extremely tight cluster that mineral lines, drones, larva, and hellbats tend to be in, this is WAY too strong against Zerg opponents, as it not only kills their UNITS, but also their PRODUCTION capabilities...
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On February 12 2013 03:51 leova wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 02:36 Dingodile wrote:
larvas and eggs should be immune vs fire attacks. They die almost as drones. agreed, Huskystarcraft actually had some commentary on this in one of his recent videos. 3-attack Hellbats will 1-shot Larva, and I'd assume 2-shot them without upgrades. considering the extremely tight cluster that mineral lines, drones, larva, and hellbats tend to be in, this is WAY too strong against Zerg opponents, as it not only kills their UNITS, but also their PRODUCTION capabilities...
Zerg already has a pretty fantastic counter to getting larvae sniped; it's called macro
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As far as I know its fairly easy to kill the larva with just regular BF Hellions anyways.
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Honestly the only nerf I think is really needed for the Hellbat is one that should be the most obvious... Remove the Damn Biotag from them... Was a stupid idea from the start to have them turn into a bio unit and let medivacs heal them. Stop them from being healed and players might be able to kill them before they roast entire mineral lines.
I haven't played vs them much but watching a lot of these games I can really see where blizzard is coming from, players just don't seem to react properly(or in some cases at all) against Hellbat drops. Let players tinker around with build counters and wait and see. Early on in WoL I think they were entirely to trigger happy with nerfs and nerfing units into oblivion so I'm kind of happy they are pausing and actually waiting on this one.
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On February 12 2013 03:41 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I weep; Blizzard releases a perfectly reasonable statement with a perfectly reasonable suggestion and people get mad and one guy even manages to bring some whine about D3 and WoW into it.
i don t see the "perfeclty reasonable suggestion"
sorry
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On February 12 2013 03:02 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 02:48 Fencar wrote:On February 12 2013 02:45 Zelniq wrote:
My problem with hellbats has never been the drops, though I do think the medivacs coming with the boost by default is a little much (as many have suggested, an upgrade makes more sense).
I just think any unit that hard counters another one is poor design.
It'd be different if there was micro that you could do to reduce the effectiveness (like marines vs banelings, split vs clumped).. but there's nothing like that for lings vs hellbats unfortunately, they just get dominated incredibly hard. At least with blue-flame hellions, if you surrounded them you could kill them all, though still lose more in Units Lost tab, because their HP wasn't that high and their splash isn't as effective vs a ling surround.
It's similar to how hydras vs colossus function..due to the way the colossus attack is designed, unit-splitting micro is ineffective, they're going to die no matter what you do. I much prefer the other directional line-attack, that lurkers had in BW. There if you A-moved your marines would all get melted as they run in, but if you split them up it drastically improved their effectiveness.
A year ago, I'd really been hoping they'd rework the colossus in HotS. IMO it's the unit that holds back the Protoss matchups the most (once the colossus/army count gets high enough, it all but forces all races to go air, making the matchups very 1-dimensional and stale). I think that the biggest reason this is true is because of their large health pool, which I touch on in the post I mentioned in the OP. It lets Hellbats stay alive for so long that they just keep on firing versus the Zerglings even though they are doing tons of damage, it just isn't enough especially with Medivacs healing them. Hellbats are specifically designed for TvP mech. If you touch Hellbat as it is even slightly, it will ruin any attempt to mech TvP forever (Blizzard will not buff tank, period). I see in TvZ they hard counter lings, but you should not rely on lings TvZ against a mech players at all. I haven't seen them in not mech compositions I believe. For standard WoL TvZ you only do this Hellbat drop and this might get nerfed. So yeah, in HotS, your lings are less effective, but we gained whole new perspective in TvP. Not to mention, there is now similarly hard counter to Tanks as Immortal in Viper. I don't complain, it makes for beautiful interesting and action-packed game. Not touching the Siege Tank or other units related to Mech play is a dumb excuse for not nerfing a unit which is almost breaking a matchup and turning it into Mech vs Mech every game, IMO.
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United States7166 Posts
This change would be kind of odd cus people would just put 4 hellions into a medivac then transform them afterwards as necessary. It buys a little time though at least for the opponent, but still kind of an awkward, poor way to 'fix' a problem.
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On February 12 2013 04:05 Zelniq wrote:
This change would be kind of odd cus people would just put 4 hellions into a medivac then transform them afterwards as necessary. It buys a little time though at least for the opponent, but still kind of an awkward, poor way to 'fix' a problem.
You wouldn't be able to drop right on top of workers anymore though, not with more than two Hellbats, which is a pretty big nerf to Hellbat drops IMO. Especially since workers move a lot faster than Hellbats.
Not saying that it'll be completely balanced but I still think it's a very good change.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 12 2013 04:05 Zelniq wrote:
This change would be kind of odd cus people would just put 4 hellions into a medivac then transform them afterwards as necessary. It buys a little time though at least for the opponent, but still kind of an awkward, poor way to 'fix' a problem.
Having to transform them after you drop is another couple of seconds to pull your workers away before they get murdered. That'd go a long way to dealing with the problem.
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United States7166 Posts
good points. it just seemed strange to me to have a unit that can have 2 different cargo sizes.
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On February 12 2013 04:05 Zelniq wrote:
This change would be kind of odd cus people would just put 4 hellions into a medivac then transform them afterwards as necessary. It buys a little time though at least for the opponent, but still kind of an awkward, poor way to 'fix' a problem.
What would be your suggestion then?
Keep in mind Hellbat in it's current form is really what makes people want to try mech TvP. I think it's a good nerf. It's not another "Oh, Reapers are insane, let's nerf them to oblivion to make sure no one uses them ever"..
I can see removing bio flag from Hellbat as another possibility.
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I'd prefer that simply hellbat cannot enter a medivac at all. Whenever you try they transform into hellion first before loading. Would make more sense for me.
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On February 12 2013 04:05 Zelniq wrote:
This change would be kind of odd cus people would just put 4 hellions into a medivac then transform them afterwards as necessary. It buys a little time though at least for the opponent, but still kind of an awkward, poor way to 'fix' a problem.
I wouldn't be so sure, it's those kinds of mechanical idiosyncrasies that made BW so good. Imagine combining one hellbat with two hellions so that one could fire while the others morphed.
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Agreed 100% on this suggestion. Hellbat drops themself are fine, it's just that 4 hellbats that early in the game with medivacs are too hard to deal with unless you have godlike control. 2 hellbats at a time would be better.
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On February 12 2013 04:14 Stow.Wif wrote:
I'd prefer that simply hellbat cannot enter a medivac at all. Whenever you try they transform into hellion first before loading. Would make more sense for me.
Yeah, that'd be a terrible idea. How would it make sense when a thor can enter a medivac but a hellbat can't?
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Also, it would reduce the amount of hellbat/medivac speedboost micro that can be done. One of the issues now is that, after workers or whatever get away from the hellbats, you can pick them back up and fly them to their targets that can no longer escape. This might be the most level-headed balance ideas from Blizzard that I've seen.
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On February 12 2013 04:16 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:14 Stow.Wif wrote:
I'd prefer that simply hellbat cannot enter a medivac at all. Whenever you try they transform into hellion first before loading. Would make more sense for me. Yeah, that'd be a terrible idea. How would it make sense when a thor can enter a medivac but a hellbat can't?
Well, Thor don't really ENTER the medivac. I guess that 2 hellbat folded under the medivac could be cool too.
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Blizzard balance team taking ages to see the obvious problems. Classic. Sad.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 12 2013 04:12 Zelniq wrote:
good points. it just seemed strange to me to have a unit that can have 2 different cargo sizes.
Having packed a suitcase or two in my day, some things with the same fit better when they are configured it different ways. This is not really shocking at all for me and I think a fine solution to a possible problem.
On another note, the bio tag is weird, but medivacs lose a lot of value with nothing to heal. Its a weird solution, but one that I can get behind.
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EPT
