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On February 12 2013 16:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 15:07 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:
[quote]
Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA.
Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it.
Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it  So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos. I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible. Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it. Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all  You are right in that it doesnt really matter if a drop goes badly in SC2, but your conclusion is wrong. Why was it such a big deal in BW when you lost the Reaver shuttle? Because you couldnt replace it easily. Thus the ECONOMY in SC2 is too big and needs to be nerfed. If Blizzard would do that there would be fewer units on the battlefield and keeping them alive would become more important. Anyways ... it is PROTOSS which needs a good and droppable unit and not Terran, so Blizzard screwed up again. warp prism with HTs and 3/3 chargelots is one of the most powerful drop in the whole game. not to mention adding the mass warp ins
Throw in a DT if you want to be extra annoying.
Not to mention that Immortal drops are incredible strong. They are just not really good vs T and Z in WoL, because immortals aren't too good vs pure bio play and because Protoss has a really hard time to tech to immortals + drop and get a safe third vs Zerg.
But the units to drop are definatly there. Both micro intense snipers, as well as throw-away high costefficiency ones.
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On February 12 2013 16:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 15:07 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:
[quote]
Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA.
Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it.
Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos. I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible. Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it. Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all You are right in that it doesnt really matter if a drop goes badly in SC2, but your conclusion is wrong. Why was it such a big deal in BW when you lost the Reaver shuttle? Because you couldnt replace it easily. Thus the ECONOMY in SC2 is too big and needs to be nerfed. If Blizzard would do that there would be fewer units on the battlefield and keeping them alive would become more important. Anyways ... it is PROTOSS which needs a good and droppable unit and not Terran, so Blizzard screwed up again. warp prism with HTs and 3/3 chargelots is one of the most powerful drop in the whole game. not to mention adding the mass warp ins
They arent DROP units ... they are warped in. Zealots are relatively slow at killing off buildings when compared to Marines / Marauders with stim. Zealots also are melee and not at all AoE damage units which is the point of the Reaver drop. With warping in Zealots you can deal damage, BUT it isnt microable as a Marine or Reaver drop is ... so the gameplay is totally different.
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Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation.
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On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation.
Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ...
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On February 12 2013 19:32 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation. Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ...
Yeah, and they don't have marine drops either. Nor do they have F22 King Raptors or Kirovs.
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On February 12 2013 19:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 19:32 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation. Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ... Yeah, and they don't have marine drops either. Nor do they have F22 King Raptors or Kirovs.
Would it be comparable if hellbats had 9 range or if hellbats had 125 damage? Which one?
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On February 12 2013 19:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 19:47 Big J wrote:On February 12 2013 19:32 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation. Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ... Yeah, and they don't have marine drops either. Nor do they have F22 King Raptors or Kirovs. Would it be comparable if hellbats had 9 range or if hellbats had 125 damage? Which one?
would need testing... It's a different game, a different unit on a different race. Even if it had exactly reaver stats, you might no be able to recreate reaver drop gameplay.
I just wanted "to point out what Protoss DOESNT have" apart from reavers. It sounded like pointing out what they don't have is already a great argument for giving them exactly that thing.
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On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about.
My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop.
EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game.
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On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
[quote]
Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game.
They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means.
"Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical."
I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical.
Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things?
It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense.
Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are.
Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.).
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On February 13 2013 02:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game. They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means. "Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical." I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical. Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things? It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense. Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are. Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.).
I don't know how to explain how flabbergasted I am at your comments. I'm just speechless.So are we supposed to acknowledge every similarity even though they have nothing to do with each other? And what does that even have to do with the problem that I had, that USING REAVER DROPS TO JUSTIFY HELLBAT DROPS IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT. And no, I did not say you could not compare two similar things. I said using one similar thing to justify another similar thing is invalid because it's like comparing apples and oranges. I mean I've tried to avoid arguing in schematics, trying to define differences, and saying that even though two things seem similar, they have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PRINCIPLES. I mean just look at your silly generalized argument. You claim that hellbat drops and reaver are comparable because they fit the following principles:
1) drop
2) harassment
3) AOE damage
Wow. That has to be the biggest generalization I've seen in my entire life. You know what else fits that requirement? Normal hellion drops. HT storm drops. Overlord baneling drops. Colossus drops. Are we going to compare Colossus drops to Reaver drops now? They're pretty similar. 9 range, pick up drop micro, use of a shuttle/warp prism. Hey guys, Colossus drops are the same thing as reaver drops! Colossus drops have to have the same effectiveness of reaver drops, right? Sometimes I wish people would READ my arguments instead of violently reacting to everything they could take out of context :/
Oh and btw using "It requires a lot of micro" is not a valid argument either. It doesn't matter how much micro something requires, if mastering that micro give you an unfair advantage against your opponent then it shouldn't be allowed in the game. Just look at ghost snipe. Even though everyone acknowledged how much micro sniping took, the lead you could take by sniping key units was enough to justify its nerf (not to say that I agree with that snipe was overpowered, but I'm just giving an example). Every race should have access to that sort of micro potential if we're really going to try to justify it.
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On February 13 2013 02:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game. They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means. "Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical." I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical. Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things? It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense. Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are. Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.).
THE ONLY SIMILARITY BETWEEN A SHUTTLE AND A MEDIVAC IS THAT THEY ARE FLYING UNITS THAT CAN CARRY OTHER UNITS. THAT'S IT. THE COMPARISON ENDS THERE. EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE UNITS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. And that's just a Shuttle vs Medivac the differences between Reavers and Hellbats are even more extreme. I AM NOT EXAGGERATING. YOU ARE.
EDIT: And before someone makes the claim I am angry, I am not. I simply think typing in caps may be necessary to get these things through your thick skull.
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I'm really curious why you two are having an unnecessary nerd battle. You're comparing two completely different games with entirely different dynamics. Just relax please and get back on topic.
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I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot.
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On February 13 2013 03:25 Harbinger631 wrote:
I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot.
oO
balls of steel posting this, just two posts after those rants... 
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On February 13 2013 03:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 03:25 Harbinger631 wrote:
I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot. oO balls of steel posting this, just two posts after those rants...
Got to admit, I smirked and smiled when I read it too. Kudos
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On February 13 2013 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 03:28 Big J wrote:On February 13 2013 03:25 Harbinger631 wrote:
I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot. oO balls of steel posting this, just two posts after those rants... Got to admit, I smirked and smiled when I read it too. Kudos
I cant tell if he is trolling. Also, from my reading on SC2, everything is like a Reaver Drop. Except DT drops, which are like DT drops.
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TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me.
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On February 13 2013 03:58 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me.
I don't understand how spending 150/100 for an armory vs 150/150 for blueflame is that backbreakingly different?
I also don't understand how "going hellbat drop" doesn't set you behind when it sets you back as much as all other one base plays.
Pretty much anything that isn't 1RaxFE sets Terran's economy back...
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On February 13 2013 04:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 03:58 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me. I don't understand how spending 150/100 for an armory vs 150/150 for blueflame is that backbreakingly different? I also don't understand how "going hellbat drop" doesn't set you behind when it sets you back as much as all other one base plays. Pretty much anything that isn't 1RaxFE sets Terran's economy back...
There's a huge difference between building a Reactor and an Armory and building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter in terms of your overall production ability and your tech advancements. Which would you rather have, a Factory with a Tech Lab researching Infernal Pre Igniter, or a Factory with a Reactor producing 2xHellions and an Armory that allows you to upgrade 2/2 infantry, 1/0 vehicles and gives all of your Hellions a free upgrade to Battle Hellions and all of your Tech Lab Factory's access to Thors.
There's just no arguing the point, nobody is building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter over building a Reactor and constructing an Armory anymore - the cost efficiency and tech advancement of the Armory is unmatched by any other tech structure.
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On February 13 2013 04:59 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 04:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 13 2013 03:58 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me. I don't understand how spending 150/100 for an armory vs 150/150 for blueflame is that backbreakingly different? I also don't understand how "going hellbat drop" doesn't set you behind when it sets you back as much as all other one base plays. Pretty much anything that isn't 1RaxFE sets Terran's economy back... There's a huge difference between building a Reactor and an Armory and building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter in terms of your overall production ability and your tech advancements. Which would you rather have, a Factory with a Tech Lab researching Infernal Pre Igniter, or a Factory with a Reactor producing 2xHellions and an Armory that allows you to upgrade 2/2 infantry, 1/0 vehicles and gives all of your Hellions a free upgrade to Battle Hellions and all of your Tech Lab Factory's access to Thors. There's just no arguing the point, nobody is building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter over building a Reactor and constructing an Armory anymore - the cost efficiency and tech advancement of the Armory is unmatched by any other tech structure.
Wait.. so your pumping double hellions and getting +1/+1 while getting an armory in time for +2/+2 while also pumping medivacs....
Um.... For free?
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EPT
