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On February 11 2013 07:04 mrjpark wrote:Tank range is already ridiculous and we have the Tempest with 15...so who cares? Try it out and see how it works out 
Too bad that vs. Zerg even with your "ridiculous" range the tank barely fires 2-3 shots before he dies, making it not really cost-effective (unless manually targeting banelings/infestors - all of that while you are splitting your bio).
And does it make a difference against Protoss where his shells are barely tickling enemy units.
The tank is a piece of shit and everyone (good at the game) knows that. No wonder after 50% dmg reduction to light and some dmg reduction to armored.
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On February 11 2013 23:11 Elvin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 07:04 mrjpark wrote:Tank range is already ridiculous and we have the Tempest with 15...so who cares? Try it out and see how it works out Too bad that vs. Zerg even with your "ridiculous" range the tank barely fires 2-3 shots before he dies, making it not really cost-effective (unless manually targeting banelings/infestors - all of that while you are splitting your bio). And does it make a difference against Protoss where his shells are barely tickling enemy units. The tank is a piece of shit and everyone (good at the game) knows that. No wonder after 50% dmg reduction to light and some dmg reduction to armored.
And a range increase wouldn't even change that. Most of the time in non-mirror matchups, bar scans, you don't even have enough vision to use the full range.
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On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong.
may be the terrans in wood and bronze league?
every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
I don't know about hellbats in TvT, but map awareness - are you kidding me? ;p Boosted medivac comes into your main in like 2 seconds and even if you pull your workers, then he will just drop on them, so pulling workers if usually even worse.
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hmm these changes are fairly good.
Still hots as a whole kind of sucks.
Widow mines are useful in all matchups now without being too strong i guess. I still don't like the design of the unit being a bit too good against air harass and being a bit crappy lategame but at least it's not a terrible design anymore. It's a nice buff against protoss I didn't except they would ever use.
From a design point of view these changes are quite ugly as +shield damage and +biological air damage are just other words + damage vs P and + damage vs Z basically. I wonder what made them never use these options before but suddenly embrace them now, I guess they realise they don't know any other options then these. In the same line they can basically add tanks ignore hardened shields soon...
I really like these zerg changes to give them a little more early game oomph though. I doubt they will do much if at all but just small nudges to make zerg a little less predictable early on is good. With the new hots options they can at least (fake) some interesting tactics a bit more. OV speed on the way to lair can become pretty common but not a must which is exactly what upgrades like these should be, interesting decisions that are not a must. Especially agianst protoss it seems very useful for keeping your overlords alive.
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The harvester kills is really not the biggest deal. The most threatening hellbat drops are done with gas first on 1 base, so are rather all in. You can afford to lose 10 or so workers if you're on 2 bases. If you're on 1 base, I assume you can pay even more attention to your single mineral line and not lose much when they come in.
There is one big problem though. 4 hellbats + 1 medivac are not your usual 1 base harass force like 4 hellions, a banshee, 4 zealots in a warpprism, some DTs. 4 hellbats + 1 medivac is a fucking strong army early on, cost efficient against almost everything on the ground, that's the problem. I play the Terran side of things, so it's not like I'm complaining, but it's very rare for me to be cost inefficient with a 4 hellbat drop assuming I can keep my medivac alive at the end of the attack. Your 4 hellbats can just sit in the deserted mineral line for like a minute before your opponent has enough to deal with it. And if he makes the mistake to engage with a weaker force - that is to say everything that doesn't contain a hellbat (;D), a 1 base all in army, or air units -, you will murder him with minimal hellbat losses.
One thing though, Protoss and Zergs: you can actually try to kite this thing, the micro is intensive (for non-Terrans, that is, j/k j/k), but you should be able to kite a range 2 unit with a range 4 to 6 unit, and pick off the medivac slowly when he's close enough.
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United Kingdom12056 Posts
On February 12 2013 00:11 Markwerf wrote:
hmm these changes are fairly good.
Still hots as a whole kind of sucks.
Widow mines are useful in all matchups now without being too strong i guess. I still don't like the design of the unit being a bit too good against air harass and being a bit crappy lategame but at least it's not a terrible design anymore. It's a nice buff against protoss I didn't except they would ever use.
From a design point of view these changes are quite ugly as +shield damage and +biological air damage are just other words + damage vs P and + damage vs Z basically. I wonder what made them never use these options before but suddenly embrace them now, I guess they realise they don't know any other options then these. In the same line they can basically add tanks ignore hardened shields soon...
I really like these zerg changes to give them a little more early game oomph though. I doubt they will do much if at all but just small nudges to make zerg a little less predictable early on is good. With the new hots options they can at least (fake) some interesting tactics a bit more. OV speed on the way to lair can become pretty common but not a must which is exactly what upgrades like these should be, interesting decisions that are not a must. Especially agianst protoss it seems very useful for keeping your overlords alive.
I think the main reason they went with what they did is it was the only way of improving both of them without making them crazy good against everything else.
Spore crawlers are pretty damn good against every piece of air minus mass mutalisks as they can target them down so fast and widow mines damage wise were good both terran and zerg, however against toss due to the shield mechanic they could never really do the damage they needed to do. It's not a pretty way of balancing things, but it's not too much of a big deal as it solves the problems that were there (sort of).
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:
I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.
I think you are pretty deluded dude.
The battle hellion is very very strong together with the ferrarivacs, and it most definately need looking into. If there was only a way to make them do less damage to workers without changeing the whole game up.
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
When did MLG become bronze league? If you can't be bothered to watch, at least read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397962
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
You are a clown. I agree that you can dodge hellbat drops and it's not that hard the problem is that it's actually difficult to muster a proper defense. Zerglings, Marines and Zealots don't do anything against them at all. Stalkers, Marauders and Queens don't last too long either. I'm very curious how you are going to defend a hellbat drop when going for banshees.
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TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops?
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On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops?
Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah.
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On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops?
I hope you're joking because this is by far the worst comparison I have ever seen on TL. There is no resemblance between Hellbat drops and Reaver drops.
Try harder.
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On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah.
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess.
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On February 12 2013 00:25 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt When did MLG become bronze league? If you can't be bothered to watch, at least read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397962
Well,to be fair, most of the players that have played so far are still focused on WoL so they have no idea about the HoTS meta.
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On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess.
If it was a joke, I can understand, but what's the point of the joke? That the community wanted strong stuff like reaver drop and that when they get something like hellbat drops then they complain? Like I said earlier, there's a huge difference. Small numbers of hellbats the way they are now are just too flexible versus pretty much everything early-mid game. I've said before that hellbat drops reminded me of when people complained about marauder drops, except with 10 more hp, aoe damage and better dps. One of the biggest complaints about a marauder drop was that small number of marauders basically "countered everything", allowing free reign for the mauraders to do whatever they wanted (which was a large overstatement btw). Now you have the same problem except exacerbated, with hellbats being able to destroy probes easily while being able to fight most units cost effectively due to being relatively tanky with medivac healing support. The thing is, hellion drops existed before hellbat drops and came even earlier, but hellion drops weren't cost effective versus fighting units, and it was hard to do damage with hellions without good micro. You could research blue flame to kill probes easier, but it set you behind economically and potentially gave you dead weight in hellion supply (if you weren't going mech). With hellbat drops, you all you have to do (differently) is build an armory, which gives you access to higher tech AND better upgrades, which is what you want when teching towards mech. Plus for the price of an armory, you get better probe killing power, cost efficiency versus core fighting units ALL FOR 50 LESS GAS AND A LOT FASTER BUILDING/RESEARCH TIME (comparing cost of blue flame upgrade and armory). Anybody else seeing the problem here?
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On February 12 2013 00:49 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:25 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt When did MLG become bronze league? If you can't be bothered to watch, at least read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397962 Well,to be fair, most of the players that have played so far are still focused on WoL so they have no idea about the HoTS meta.
I agree, they're not hots experts. None of us are to be honest. But they still have the best mechanics in the business. If they can't stop hellbat drops, I have a hard time imagining anyone being able to.
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On February 08 2013 10:05 avilo wrote:
Oh, and wait a minute, what? More early game buffs for Zerg? ....
Err...pretty much the opposite?
Spores deal bonus damage to biological...but there's only one race with biological fliers: Zerg! So...this only affects ZvZ and doesn't buff the race in any way shape or form.
Fungal gets nerfed. This is...pretty much a straight nerf to Zerg.
Pneumatized Carapace is the upgrade that a lot of pros never get (unless they are also getting drops). Like...seriously, even in the old 35-minute WoL games where pros got 3/3/3/3/3 (back when the range upgrade mattered), adrenal glands, burrow, chitinous plating, centrifugal hooks, and 5-10 overseers at any one time, Pneumatized Carapace was still often skipped for the full 35 minutes. And that's in long games when Overlords have more abilities. There really isn't anything you can do with speedy overlords when you don't have a Lair, anyway. You can't generate creep without lair, you can't research Ventral Sacs without lair. You could scout, but why not get a Lair and an Overseer instead? Assuming you were going to get the lair anyway, it's cheaper (50/50 instead of 100/100). Although sure: if you're willing to delay your lair you can get speed overlords 37 seconds before the Lair->Overseer route completes an overseer. This is like...imagine Blizzard trying to convince protosses to research hallucination before Warpgates if the Observer was a gateway unit unlocked by the Twilight Council. Not going to happen.
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On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess.
Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles
I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny
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i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch
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EPT
