Beta Balance Update #13 - Page 32

On February 12 2013 04:54 summerloud wrote:
i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch

On February 12 2013 04:54 summerloud wrote:
i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch

On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:


Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles

I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny

On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:

Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA.
Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it.

On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:


Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny.

You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant.

They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny!

I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat

Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units.

But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it

So please, let's chill out and relax here.

On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:


Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny.

You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant.

They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny!

I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat

Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units.

But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it

So please, let's chill out and relax here.

On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:


*facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable.

On February 12 2013 09:14 RampancyTW wrote:
Thieving Magpie, in case you hadn't noticed, everything that Blizzard does in regards to SC2 is wrong. Everything.

They could perfectly replicate SC:BW with better graphics and the SC:BW with better graphics crowd would find something (purely placebo-based) to whine about for months, if not years. Ditto goes for the rest of the people whining on these forums with their own respective hang-ups. If Blizzard implemented exactly what they wanted, they'd be bitching about the implementation within days when it (inevitably) ended up playing out in a way that worsened the game.

On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:


I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted."

I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else.

On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:


*facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops.

On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:

Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you.

On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:

Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you.

On February 12 2013 04:54 summerloud wrote:
i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch

On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:


Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos.

On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:


I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible.

Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it.

Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all

On February 12 2013 15:07 Rabiator wrote:

You are right in that it doesnt really matter if a drop goes badly in SC2, but your conclusion is wrong. Why was it such a big deal in BW when you lost the Reaver shuttle? Because you couldnt replace it easily. Thus the ECONOMY in SC2 is too big and needs to be nerfed. If Blizzard would do that there would be fewer units on the battlefield and keeping them alive would become more important.

Anyways ... it is PROTOSS which needs a good and droppable unit and not Terran, so Blizzard screwed up again.

On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:

Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you.

On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:


I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible.

Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it.

Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all