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On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it.
So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches?
(Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack)
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On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack)
Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas.
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On February 08 2013 19:21 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free. You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league.
How about you stop being so condemning and stop to think for a second. This is HoTS, not WoL. Who said hots could never be balanced around not having instant 3 bases at the 5 min mark and maxed 200/200 at 11 min? You could go for the quickest and most powerful allin of them all, the 4 gate, and still not be able to do any damage to a zerg who goes for 3 quick hatches, and thats flat out stupid.
Tech is stronger in hots than before, and both terran and toss have some real ability to punish greedy play. At the same time, Zerg have stronger midgame units, like the new hydralisk and viper, so they can deal with the other two races without going straight to infestors and gg-lords, who no longer are even that effective because of tempest and nerfs.
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I started playing beta after patch 11 when helbats got strong buff, did they were so bad earlier that they needed such big damage boost ?
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Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still.
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On February 08 2013 18:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I mean... why not make this + shields damage an upgrade for siege tanks at say armory? To give it to a unit that has splash damage and hits both air and ground + is cheaper and can be produced 2 at a time, that's too much...
.
I would reckon that kim and browder would rather want mech TvP to be viable thanks to their new unit, the mine. Fixing mech TvP through the tank would hurt their pride, they're too stubborn to admit they were wrong.
Now, while I would rather put that shield damage to the siege tank, the WM offers some advantages: it can hit skytoss (which is very stronk) and it meshes well with bio.
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On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still.
You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
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On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack)
Couple of minerals??? 150 100 FActory,150 100 Starport 150 50 Armory vs what??? 150 queen,100 spore? Where are your "couple of minerals" vs "some roaches"? I told you 5 roaches beat 4 Hellbats+Medivac and no micro if you dont want it!!!Where is the higher price man?
My numbers are: 375 125=5 Roaches and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac
pool+roach warren+queen+spore=600 min 0 gas
rax+Facrory+starport+armory=600 min 250 gas
If roaches arent "devastating mobile force" for ,then you got no clue of playing Zerg...
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On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
Long patience. In fact, don't expect anything major before the first expansion. They've said as much.
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On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas.
Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair.
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On February 08 2013 20:46 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Couple of minerals??? 150 100 FActory,150 100 Starport 150 50 Armory vs what??? 150 queen,100 spore? Where are your "couple of minerals" vs "some roaches"? I told you 5 roaches beat 4 Hellbats+Medivac and no micro if you dont want it!!!Where is the higher price man? My numbers are: 375 125=5 Roaches and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac pool+roach warren+queen+spore=600 min 0 gas rax+Facrory+starport+armory=600 min 250 gas If roaches arent "devastating mobile force" for ,then you got no clue of playing Zerg...
Wich is the earliest time for a helion drop? It will be possible to defend with 5 roach + burrow micro?
Z: 375 (+100) 125(+100)=5 Roaches + burrow and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac
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On February 08 2013 20:46 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Couple of minerals??? 150 100 FActory,150 100 Starport 150 50 Armory vs what??? 150 queen,100 spore? Where are your "couple of minerals" vs "some roaches"? I told you 5 roaches beat 4 Hellbats+Medivac and no micro if you dont want it!!!Where is the higher price man? My numbers are: 375 125=5 Roaches and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac pool+roach warren+queen+spore=600 min 0 gas rax+Facrory+starport+armory=600 min 250 gas If roaches arent "devastating mobile force" for ,then you got no clue of playing Zerg...
because arguable a Terran always intends to get fact/port anyway. And the only part of the attack which is not standard build is the hellbats themself.
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On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair.
First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy.
Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard.
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On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
you do realize we have 3-4 patches maximum until release?
i dunno if i can trust in blizzard being bold enough to make bigger balance patches post-release if they dont do it in beta
so yeah, this is pretty much the state of the game we are going to have until lotv...
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Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades.
@DeCoup
In the Standart BO when T goes 1-1-1 vs Zerg,usually is for Hellion/BFH drop or Hellion/Banshee/Cloakshee harass.
Is there another standart BO where T needs Armory at 7 mins and a Medivac? The 1rax FE begin the Factory arround 7 min and the Armory is pretty late.The first medivacs are done at 10 mins...
Do you think is the same????
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On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
Believe me, I'm not crying here, but I'm more just trying to emphasise my frustration as basically some things haven't changed since WoL beta and don't seem to. The only notable patch basically where I felt _something_ was #8. The rest was questionable at best, mostly forgettable.
I've been trying to rationalise post-purchase as I gave them my batch of patience and faith for 3 horrid long years now. Just for comparison, that's 3 times the amount BW needed, as much time as LOST managed to achieve eternal acclaim, and twice the time it took me to read through Gravity's Rainbow (<- Okay this was in 3 tries, so that's there too).
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On February 08 2013 18:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I mean... why not make this + shields damage an upgrade for siege tanks at say armory? To give it to a unit that has splash damage and hits both air and ground + is cheaper and can be produced 2 at a time, that's too much...
Isnt it obvious why they dont do this? They LOATHE the Siege Tank (why else did they buff everything else around it?) and want to get rid of it. The first - somewhat obvious - attempt was the Warhound, which featured the same kind of bonus damage, but was booed so much by the community that they removed it ASAP. The second attempt to "sneakily replace it" is by buffing the Widow Mine ... a unit which is powerful but doesnt synergize well with other units of an *army*.
Siege Tank and Carrier are two "non-tier 1" remnants of core units from BW and they really really REALLY want to get rid of them. Why else did neither of them get buffed significantly? The Hydralisk is rather necessary as a ground based AA unit, so they cant get rid of it, but I guess they dont like it much either.
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On February 08 2013 21:02 Dvriel wrote:
Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades.
Unit tester map is not a real game. In mineral line there is usually no place to spread out roaches so they won't take splash damage. Then you have medivac which heal hellbats and lastly, terran does not even need to fight roaches because he can keep dropping on drones.
The problem is not that it's impossible to kill hellbats, it's just not possible to kill them in reasonable time before they do ridiculous damage.
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On February 08 2013 21:06 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:02 Dvriel wrote:
Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades. Unit tester map is not a real game. In mineral line there is usually no place to spread out roaches so they won't take splash damage. Then you have medivac which heal hellbats and lastly, terran does not even need to fight roaches because he can keep dropping on drones. The problem is not that it's impossible to kill hellbats, it's just not possible to kill them in reasonable time before they do ridiculous damage.
Please dont forget, even if Z does defend it 100% properly (which is really really hard), Z loses all his larvae on the hatchery (which is worth a lot at that stage of the game) as well as a TON of mining time because theyre so tanky.
It is definately NOT risky for terran to do that and terran does ALWAYS get use out of it
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1 minute detection is a lot e_e i wish they had increased it to 45 seconds instead,since the protoss move his army with the MC the early burrow and mines upgrade is pretty much useless.
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EPT
