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On February 08 2013 18:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this. If you rely on thors as your only anti air in a mech army, yeah. I've seen the way people play mech in TvP and I'm just sitting there thinking to myself "Why the fuck does this guy have 8 siege tanks against a mass air army?!"
I'm not talking mass air.
I'm taking 2 void-rays that can be chronoboosted as mech army moves out.
Even if mech cleaned up the entire protoss ground army it would still be devasted by air and then terran player would die to gateway remax.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:18 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this. If you rely on thors as your only anti air in a mech army, yeah. I've seen the way people play mech in TvP and I'm just sitting there thinking to myself "Why the fuck does this guy have 8 siege tanks against a mass air army?!" I'm not talking mass air. I'm taking 2 void-rays that can be chronoboosted as mech army moves out. Even if mech cleaned up the entire protoss ground army it would still be devasted by air and then terran player would die to gateway remax.
Eeeeeeh. Lol, that would never happen to anybody who is actually good. Void rays are still slow as fuck so if you can't kill them... pull back, make something that shoots up? Shouldn't be all that hard considering air and vehicle upgrades are combined now and you can make 2 vikings at a time. So if anything at all indicates that there are stargates, make vikings, profit from their already completed upgrades, go in again and just kill him.
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On February 08 2013 18:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:18 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this. If you rely on thors as your only anti air in a mech army, yeah. I've seen the way people play mech in TvP and I'm just sitting there thinking to myself "Why the fuck does this guy have 8 siege tanks against a mass air army?!" I'm not talking mass air. I'm taking 2 void-rays that can be chronoboosted as mech army moves out. Even if mech cleaned up the entire protoss ground army it would still be devasted by air and then terran player would die to gateway remax. Eeeeeeh. Lol, that would never happen to anybody who is actually good. Void rays are still slow as fuck so if you can't kill them... pull back, make something that shoots up?
I've heard that Vikings are pretty good....
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Smart players will def be getting early ovi speed. What I am wondering is the impact having so much Intel will have on the meta.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:26 Apevia wrote:
Smart players will def be getting early ovi speed. What I am wondering is the impact having so much Intel will have on the meta.
They will naht
It's a complete waste of gas on an upgrade that doesn't help them at all. Think about it, zerg doesn't want to have gas early. They want drones. If they do get gas, it's for ling speed or tech. Imagine you play 2 base zerg, you get overlord speed with your first 100 gas (because why get it later, you'll already know what's going on). You can either scout an aggressive build (which you'll see coming anyway if there's no expansion) or see an expansion which you'd have seen without speed too. So imagine you scout an attack with your overlord speed but you don't have ling speed because your gas went into overlord speed. "Damn, if only I hadn't scouted this all in!"
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I'm really still waiting for a +shields buff to tanks 
Fungal nerf is nice though.
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On February 08 2013 18:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:26 Apevia wrote:
Smart players will def be getting early ovi speed. What I am wondering is the impact having so much Intel will have on the meta. They will naht It's a complete waste of gas on an upgrade that doesn't help them at all.
It helps quite a bit. Being able to scout exactly what your opponent is doing is key. Outside of gold league players prevent traditional ovi sacks with stalkers/marines. Its a small investment that allows you to play with more confidence and be more decisive.
And I would suggest getting it with your second hundred gas. Because you still will want 2 queens. First hundred speed.
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Austria24422 Posts
I mean... why not make this + shields damage an upgrade for siege tanks at say armory? To give it to a unit that has splash damage and hits both air and ground + is cheaper and can be produced 2 at a time, that's too much...
100 gas is not a small investment early in the game when you're possibly unsure of what your opponent is doing and the scouting intel you get with your speed overlords isn't gonna help you if you don't have the tech to hold off an attack. There will not be a single zerg who gets overlord speed before ling speed. And after that you'll pretty much already know what's going on anyway.
The only matchup that still has suicide overlords is PvZ and zerg still opens 3 hatch no gas. Tell me where you'll squeeze in 100 gas for overlord speed.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF
You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about?
All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:42 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about? All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished.
Why should that be punished? I'm supposed to use oracles to multitask and put on aggression but if I constantly have to use their envision ability there'll be no energy to attack. Why the F should being out on the map without detection be punished this hard, especially if protoss units are already more expensive than terran units BY FAR? If there was a banshee opening, sure. But in that case terran heavily committed to something that won't help them in the long run so making multiple observers early isn't gonna hurt you much. There's never a reason for terran not to go widow mines right now. They will never be out of place in TvP with a +shields bonus, splash damage and an attack that hits air and ground. And fucking 1 shots half the protoss army.
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I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
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On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this.
Sorry, but you're wrong; Mech is the strongest composition against Protoss now; wait until everyone catches up and realizes it. You should play more beta. I know people like to say "buff" mech because it's all the rage, but Terran has all the tools it needs to beat Protoss with mech right now; it's insanely powerful. Trust me on this one.
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What is with the + dmg to bio on spores? Master z and I don't have a clue..? lol The only biological air is our own air..? so this is like.. a muta nerf?
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:47 Lumi wrote:
What is with the + dmg to bio on spores? Master z and I don't have a clue..? lol The only biological air is our own air..? so this is like.. a muta nerf?
Yeah it's supposed to tone down fungal without breaking mutas, at least that's what they said
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:42 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about? All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished. Why should that be punished? I'm supposed to use oracles to multitask and put on aggression but if I constantly have to use their envision ability there'll be no energy to attack. Why the F should being out on the map without detection be punished this hard, especially if protoss units are already more expensive than terran units BY FAR? If there was a banshee opening, sure. But in that case terran heavily committed to something that won't help them in the long run so making multiple observers early isn't gonna hurt you much. There's never a reason for terran not to go widow mines right now. They will never be out of place in TvP with a +shields bonus, splash damage and an attack that hits air and ground. And fucking 1 shots half the protoss army.
The mine needs to be cost efficient because it's so damned useless if you just move with detection. Moving around while not paying attention should be punished. Just as walking into siege tank range and not attacking should be a big blunder and you should take good damage. There needs to be more things that force skill from the opponent as well as skill in positioning for the user like the widow mine should now offer.
The widow mine was good against zerg and terran, but completely useless against tosses as they never run around with without an observer.
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:51 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:42 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about? All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished. Why should that be punished? I'm supposed to use oracles to multitask and put on aggression but if I constantly have to use their envision ability there'll be no energy to attack. Why the F should being out on the map without detection be punished this hard, especially if protoss units are already more expensive than terran units BY FAR? If there was a banshee opening, sure. But in that case terran heavily committed to something that won't help them in the long run so making multiple observers early isn't gonna hurt you much. There's never a reason for terran not to go widow mines right now. They will never be out of place in TvP with a +shields bonus, splash damage and an attack that hits air and ground. And fucking 1 shots half the protoss army. The mine needs to be cost efficient because it's so damned useless if you just move with detection. Moving around while not paying attention should be punished. Just as walking into siege tank range and not attacking should be a big blunder and you should take good damage. There needs to be more things that force skill from the opponent as well as skill in positioning for the user like the widow mine should now offer. The widow mine was good against zerg and terran, but completely useless against tosses as they never run around with without an observer.
Well that alone makes oracles completely defensive units though if you open stargate. You can't afford to harrass if you wanna be out on the map with any unit at all. That's not worth the investment. Not at all. Watch stargate play die again.
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Aww *facepalm*
Fungal nerf and spore buff regards zvz:
Seriously, going in the opponents mineral line isnt viable anyway without gambling because of fungal, disregardless spore dmg. There is too much stuff in the opponents main to rip apart mutas as soon as theyre fungaled.
That being said, muta play will increase even more with the fungal nerf. It was already quite dodgeable, now muta players will fear infestors even less.
-> FAIL
Ovi speed to hatch:
That won't affect anything. Zerg has to boost his mineral income and line important gas upgrades (speed, lair) perfectly up to deal with incoming pushes. There is no way in the world you can afford the early overlord speed. It isnt worth it. Rather sac 2 overlords (200minerals only) to get the scouting you need.
-> FAIL
I also wasnt a fan of the burrow to hatch tech, but its at least helpfull for some allins/strong pressure builds. But THIS is so much non-sense, i cant find words for that.
Dunno about tvp since im zerg.
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On February 08 2013 18:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway.
ZvT its good to know asap if they are meching or playing bio. And of course the popular hell bat drop. (Which needs a reaction). Plus allows for a smooth transition to roach drop if they mech.
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EPT
