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United Kingdom12056 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad.
2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing.
People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly.
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On February 08 2013 18:57 Apevia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway. ZvT its good to know asap if they are meching or playing bio. And of course the popular hell bat drop. (Which needs a reaction). Plus allows for a smooth transition to roach drop if they mech.
All you need is sac a single ovie vs. terran and you can see he goes mech or bio.
And on hellbats.. every single terran nowadays goes into hellbat drops so you don't even need to scout that lol.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:57 Apevia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway. ZvT its good to know asap if they are meching or playing bio. And of course the popular hell bat drop. (Which needs a reaction). Plus allows for a smooth transition to roach drop if they mech.
But the mech decision is made after an expansion is set up. Zerg will stay gasless as long as possible. So once again, your gas will not be going into overlord speed quickly. If a terran sees you have overlord speed, they should just walk across the map and kill you because you won't have any tech to defend. If you get ling speed first, the bio/mech decision will already have been made long ago.
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Italy12248 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly.
What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)...
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Besides spore buff against mutalisks this patch is useless. Of course another nerf to infestors, because they are soooo overpowered compered to other units, meh.... Am I only zerg player who wants helbats nerf? Now in every ZvT i have to build roaches, because helbats rape me every time, now matter how many queens or spines i have they always can wipe out whole mineral line, thats retarded couse you cant go heavy zergling anymore in the mid game, you have to build roaches. But maybe i am just bad, i will be pleased if someone responds to my post.
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if they want to combat mass muta they should just make fungal stronger vs bio air units...
tiny patch, makes me think we wont see any big change before release, which makes me a sad panda
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United Kingdom12056 Posts
On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)...
They have everything to do with it.
You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free.
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Italy12248 Posts
On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free.
That's the most incredibly generic post ever and it just shows your game understanding is so poor this discussion isn't even worth having.
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On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free.
You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league.
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I really, really hate "Bonus damage against X because, well, balance!". Makes little to no sense visually for both spectators and new players.
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Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better.
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On February 08 2013 19:31 CruelZeratul wrote:
Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better.
I think we can even live with the Fungal changes since it obviously was a very powerful spell in WoL that was probably too pivotal. The thing that bugs me is that they practically did nothing to compensate for the Fungal nerfs. The two T1 tech changes for Zerg are laughable and will never ever have any impact in their current form. Swarm Hosts are a boring niche unit. The Muta buff is easily negated and overruled by a shitton of serious T1/T2 buffs for both Terran and Protoss. There just has to be a buff to Zerg T2, preferably to Hydralisks.
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On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Besides spore buff against mutalisks this patch is useless. Of course another nerf to infestors, because they are soooo overpowered compered to other units, meh.... Am I only zerg player who wants helbats nerf? Now in every ZvT i have to build roaches, because helbats rape me every time, now matter how many queens or spines i have they always can wipe out whole mineral line, thats retarded couse you cant go heavy zergling anymore in the mid game, you have to build roaches. But maybe i am just bad, i will be pleased if someone responds to my post.
You are not bad.Its just the metagame now.To stop Hellbats you need roaches,but hey..I want to control the map with only 2 marines and this is not fair!!! Why should I build hellions?Why cant skip factory and go for pure MMM?Oh,because I face creep in my natural?
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it.
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On February 08 2013 19:47 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:31 CruelZeratul wrote:
Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better. I think we can even live with the Fungal changes since it obviously was a very powerful spell in WoL that was probably too pivotal. The thing that bugs me is that they practically did nothing to compensate for the Fungal nerfs. The two T1 tech changes for Zerg are laughable and will never ever have any impact in their current form. Swarm Hosts are a boring niche unit. The Muta buff is easily negated and overruled by a shitton of serious T1/T2 buffs for both Terran and Protoss. There just has to be a buff to Zerg T2, preferably to Hydralisks.
What i would really like to see is to get rid of useless Swarm Host and move Viper to T2. I know that is probably too late for that, but it would make playing Z more interesting. Now imo its just boring, you are doing the same stuff you did in WoL. I just want Z to be again fun race to play, its fu*king Zerg addon and I feel like playing WoL all the time.
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Overlord speed is so incredibly useless in the early game. You're not going to blow your 100 precious gas on it, because you'll just die to anything, because you're missing another vital upgrade. Maybe if they lowered the cost to 50/50 it would be worth getting, but slow overlords still scout well enough, except for the well placed DT shrine from time to time. But even without seeing the shrine you can expect DTs due to the empty protoss base.
So I guess this is only worth it in lower leagues, where people float money anyway and need to see the actual building to understand what's coming.
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If the speed tech is so useless early it's stupid to have it in lair tech in the first place. You don't need constraints when it's not needed.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On February 08 2013 19:47 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:31 CruelZeratul wrote:
Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better. I think we can even live with the Fungal changes since it obviously was a very powerful spell in WoL that was probably too pivotal. The thing that bugs me is that they practically did nothing to compensate for the Fungal nerfs. The two T1 tech changes for Zerg are laughable and will never ever have any impact in their current form. Swarm Hosts are a boring niche unit. The Muta buff is easily negated and overruled by a shitton of serious T1/T2 buffs for both Terran and Protoss. There just has to be a buff to Zerg T2, preferably to Hydralisks.
They buffed spores, that speed change was to tone down fungal and the spore change is to stop mutas being to prevalent.
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On February 08 2013 20:06 nihlon wrote:
If the speed tech is so useless early it's stupid to have it in lair tech in the first place. You don't need constraints when it's not needed.
What? Speed for overlords is useful during the midgame, to execute roach drops vs mech for example. Having it in lair makes sense, having it in hatchery doesn't.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 20:06 nihlon wrote:
If the speed tech is so useless early it's stupid to have it in lair tech in the first place. You don't need constraints when it's not needed.
Those are two different things though. It's a good upgrade, but not as early into the game when you'd still be on hatch tech.
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More DMG against Shields would be such a nice lategame tank upgrade :/
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EPT
