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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:16 shid0x wrote:
1 minute detection is a lot e_e i wish they had increased it to 45 seconds instead,since the protoss move his army with the MC the early burrow and mines upgrade is pretty much useless.
??
Oracle has detection, not MSC
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On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard.
3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough.
Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals.
DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast...
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On February 08 2013 21:06 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:02 Dvriel wrote:
Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades. Unit tester map is not a real game. In mineral line there is usually no place to spread out roaches so they won't take splash damage. Then you have medivac which heal hellbats and lastly, terran does not even need to fight roaches because he can keep dropping on drones. The problem is not that it's impossible to kill hellbats, it's just not possible to kill them in reasonable time before they do ridiculous damage.
Dont let drones there and scout!!! Put your overlords in the possible patsh of medivacs and wait for them.Try snipe them with queens and pull drones,man.Even clumped Roaches suffering the 4 Hellbat fire are able to kill them with 2 roaches remaining.
I can show you in game.Just add me and we play. Demon 952
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast...
Doesn't mean that you can just go DT every game. DTs give you map control until zerg/terran have any kind of detection available, after that they're just dead weight. That's why you usually only see DTs lategame unless you do a strategy that specifically centers around them to exploit the lack of detection.
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On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.
This is simply not true... Hellbat drops can come from silly fast 1 base pushes but more commonly as standard harass all game long...
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The oracle change kills DT in PvP
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now?
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now?
Lol, oh man. Another hero
Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine.
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Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval?
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval?
NO!
No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono
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United Kingdom12056 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine.
Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection.
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On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now?
Yes, and ? you risk to be called an idiot if you advocate that races should be op for some time and take "turns" for that. In PvZ you could have still hoped for a lucky vortex (not saying the late game wasn't in Z favour, just saying that skytoss is a little bit stronger now vs zerg than infestor broodlord vs p).
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On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast...
What are you trying to prove here? I know hellbat drops are very hard to defend, I've seen many pro players losing so much stuff to that.
If all zerg got is 5 roaches then you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. He pulls drones, and you just catch them with speed medivac and drop on them. That's how you do.
Oh and hellbats drops come from any amount of base play.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection.
Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP
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On February 08 2013 21:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval? NO! No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono
I never said trading mind you, how much damage / how fast they move / how much health is completely customizable. Locusts already trade vs high cost units as is, they are slow and need set up time before hand which balances it out. Same could be done for an spawning scourges or some other anti air ( 10 second switch time between modes for example ).
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On February 08 2013 22:02 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval? NO! No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono I never said trading mind you, how much damage / how fast they move / how much health is completely customizable. Locusts already trade vs high cost units as is, they are slow and need set up time before hand which balances it out. Same could be done for an spawning scourges or some other anti air ( 10 second switch time between modes for example ).
Hmm, spawning free flying banelings.
THAT COULD WORK!
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On February 08 2013 22:08 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:02 absalom86 wrote:On February 08 2013 21:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval? NO! No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono I never said trading mind you, how much damage / how fast they move / how much health is completely customizable. Locusts already trade vs high cost units as is, they are slow and need set up time before hand which balances it out. Same could be done for an spawning scourges or some other anti air ( 10 second switch time between modes for example ). Hmm, spawning free flying banelings. THAT COULD WORK!
It would be like a projectile that you could stop... I'd love actually :D
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So, now Widow Mines one-shot Stalkers and Oracles. A WP will be left with 40 hp.
Protoss cannot harass against Terran without risking to lose the harass units without doing any damage at all in the blink of an eye.
Hellbats beat Stalkers in 1v1, also Zealots, there are very few ground units in the game that can trade cost efficiently against Hellbats and Protoss owns none of them.
In fact, 8 Hellions (800 Minerals) beat 2 Archons (200-600 or 500-500) incredibly easily, there are 5-6 left over.
Hellbats are the best ground unit right now, after Ultralisk. BUT they can also be used to inflict a ton of eco damage via drops or Hellion mode.
So you create a race that has easy access to powerful and massable units that serve almost any purpose in the game but also make them immune to harass. That sounds like a smart concept..
Edit: I guess you can use 2 Tempests and an Observer to constantly kill off Widow Mines and Missile Turrets to open up possibilities to harass a Terran >.<
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On February 08 2013 20:31 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:21 .syd. wrote:On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free. You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league. How about you stop being so condemning and stop to think for a second. This is HoTS, not WoL. Who said hots could never be balanced around not having instant 3 bases at the 5 min mark and maxed 200/200 at 11 min? You could go for the quickest and most powerful allin of them all, the 4 gate, and still not be able to do any damage to a zerg who goes for 3 quick hatches, and thats flat out stupid. Tech is stronger in hots than before, and both terran and toss have some real ability to punish greedy play. At the same time, Zerg have stronger midgame units, like the new hydralisk and viper, so they can deal with the other two races without going straight to infestors and gg-lords, who no longer are even that effective because of tempest and nerfs.
New Hydra, heh you're really funny man. Bitching about Broodlords too, guess things never change eh? Tempests Rape BL's and Hellbats rape broodlings.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 08 2013 22:14 DaOrks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:31 Excludos wrote:On February 08 2013 19:21 .syd. wrote:On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free. You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league. How about you stop being so condemning and stop to think for a second. This is HoTS, not WoL. Who said hots could never be balanced around not having instant 3 bases at the 5 min mark and maxed 200/200 at 11 min? You could go for the quickest and most powerful allin of them all, the 4 gate, and still not be able to do any damage to a zerg who goes for 3 quick hatches, and thats flat out stupid. Tech is stronger in hots than before, and both terran and toss have some real ability to punish greedy play. At the same time, Zerg have stronger midgame units, like the new hydralisk and viper, so they can deal with the other two races without going straight to infestors and gg-lords, who no longer are even that effective because of tempest and nerfs. New Hydra, heh you're really funny man. Bitching about Broodlords too, guess things never change eh? Tempests Rape BL's and Hellbats rape broodlings.
Lol, there'd be something wrong with the game if they didn't
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EPT
