EPTDavid Kim on potential beta changes (Feb 4th,2013) - Page 34
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
On February 08 2013 03:57 avilo wrote: Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on. In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc. Why are you still fighting for this lol? I dont think a single top terran cares anymore about the tank or mech in tvp anymore. Blizzard doesnt want tanks as stable support units in tvp they prefer the mobile bio play style, nor does 50% of the community that thinks a-moving up a ramp into pre positioned tanks with mech support should be a viable option. let it go | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control. It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 08 2013 05:42 Ghanburighan wrote: It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50? I think he is just confused, since everything he asked for already happens. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
Protoss vs Terran on the other hand is still centered around the collosus no matter what. If you don't have a collosus in your army it is very hard to win a straight up fight against terran. Unless you're a master of storms then PvT is fine too. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 08 2013 05:44 Plansix wrote: I think he is just confused, since everything he asked for already happens. Haha and he said it like he wanted it to be nerfed to the ground. I just want the mine to cost 2 supply man... | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:07 ZenithM wrote: Haha and he said it like he wanted it to be nerfed to the ground. I just want the mine to cost 2 supply man... Mines cost 3 supply?? Wow, that's just too much. Some things just aren't fun, and screw balance, shouldn't be in the game. That's one. -zerg | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:18 danl9rm wrote: Mines cost 3 supply?? Wow, that's just too much. Some things just aren't fun, and screw balance, shouldn't be in the game. That's one. -zerg No. They cost 2 supply. -liquipedia | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:12 larse wrote: I guess there will be no patch today. So maybe Feb 14th is when the next patch comes out. Only 3 weeks left at that time, and we have tons of problems. This is hilarious. expect a day 1 patch | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:18 danl9rm wrote: Mines cost 3 supply?? Wow, that's just too much. Some things just aren't fun, and screw balance, shouldn't be in the game. That's one. -zerg Sarcasm is lost on all of you. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion. It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it. Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech. Anyway, I hope you brought your swimsuit, because I just brought a pools worth of salty terran tears. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:33 nottapro wrote: I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit. Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion. It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it. Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech. It's simply misguided logic. People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy. Blizz mistakenly decided to give in and make a 2 supply mine instead of a shredder. This led to stupid. They went back to the Shredder idea and now it works as a low supply defensive siege tank. With this new unit--people can now do something akin to old style mech play. Widow Mines as tanks, marines/marauders as vultures, Planetary Fortresses defending expos as spider mines. However, despite getting this play style back, people are upset that it doesn't involve mines and siege tanks. So now we have people comparing Spider Mines to Widow mines (and getting confused as to why the Widow Mine doesn't fulfill that role) while at the same time asking why tanks aren't buffed (forgetting that Widow Mines are slowly taking over that role) So no, we are not closer to what people think of Mech and it's not because we don't have the playstyle--it's because the playstyle is not factory centric. Really it's a Rax/Fac/Port centric playstyle that supports mines with MMM while applying pressure with Hellbat drops all the while transitioning to a Hellbat/Marauder/Marine/medivac late game. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy. Oh, really? Welp, I guess they have to take out all the broodlings and locusts now, since they have a no-infinite-free-unit policy. But a few mines per hellion (or other unit) is totally out of the question. Blizzard is changing things that aren't broken just to say they changed them. And they are failing because of that need to make a mark on a game that was perfectly fine before they came along, and which they are unable to accept is better made than any of their work. The Siege Tank in Brood War was perfectly fine. This 3 supply, 125 gas unit that deals a fraction of the damage is obviously useless by comparison, and the only justification from Blizzard is they "don't like players to play defensively." Oh, Colossi and Infestor Broodlord don't create the same problem, to a much larger extent, without the tank's weaknesses? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:57 ledarsi wrote: Oh, really? Welp, I guess they have to take out all the broodlings and locusts now, since they have a no-infinite-free-unit policy. But a few mines per hellion (or other unit) is totally out of the question. Blizzard is changing things that aren't broken just to say they changed them. And they are failing because of that need to make a mark on a game that was perfectly fine before they came along, and which they are unable to accept is better made than any of their work. The Siege Tank in Brood War was perfectly fine. This 3 supply, 125 gas unit that deals a fraction of the damage is obviously useless by comparison, and the only justification from Blizzard is they "don't like players to play defensively." Oh, Colossi and Infestor Broodlord don't create the same problem, to a much larger extent, without the tank's weaknesses? And hellions are already more expensive than vultures, and nothing's forcing Blizzard to give them three mines for free, it could just as easily be two mines. But I think this ship has sailed, the widow mine exists and it's not going to go away. I do think that tanks were slightly too strong in Brood War. It worked out in that game anyway, but tank lines were so hard to break. On the other hand, SC2 overcompensates and has a situation where sieged up tanks are barely stronger than unsieged ones. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:57 ledarsi wrote: Oh, really? Welp, I guess they have to take out all the broodlings and locusts now, since they have a no-infinite-free-unit policy. But a few mines per hellion (or other unit) is totally out of the question. Blizzard is changing things that aren't broken just to say they changed them. And they are failing because of that need to make a mark on a game that was perfectly fine before they came along, and which they are unable to accept is better made than any of their work. The Siege Tank in Brood War was perfectly fine. This 3 supply, 125 gas unit that deals a fraction of the damage is obviously useless by comparison, and the only justification from Blizzard is they "don't like players to play defensively." Oh, Colossi and Infestor Broodlord don't create the same problem, to a much larger extent, without the tank's weaknesses? Broodlords cant have more than 6 SH can't have more than 2 Vultures land 3 mines, die, mines still exist. over time, infinite mines exist no matter how often vultures die. It's the same logic they used with Overseers. "Can't have it have active spells because what happens when you have infinite overseers?" EDIT: As for the siege tank, And it's not "a fraction" of the damage since Siege Tanks deal only 20 less damage to large units--everything else stays the same as BW. The +25 gas and +1 supply is a massive blow though. 25% gas cost increase and a 50% supply cost increase. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
On February 08 2013 06:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: It's simply misguided logic. People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy. Blizz mistakenly decided to give in and make a 2 supply mine instead of a shredder. This led to stupid. They went back to the Shredder idea and now it works as a low supply defensive siege tank. With this new unit--people can now do something akin to old style mech play. Widow Mines as tanks, marines/marauders as vultures, Planetary Fortresses defending expos as spider mines. However, despite getting this play style back, people are upset that it doesn't involve mines and siege tanks. So now we have people comparing Spider Mines to Widow mines (and getting confused as to why the Widow Mine doesn't fulfill that role) while at the same time asking why tanks aren't buffed (forgetting that Widow Mines are slowly taking over that role) So no, we are not closer to what people think of Mech and it's not because we don't have the playstyle--it's because the playstyle is not factory centric. Really it's a Rax/Fac/Port centric playstyle that supports mines with MMM while applying pressure with Hellbat drops all the while transitioning to a Hellbat/Marauder/Marine/medivac late game. So what your thinking is that Widowmine + Bioball is currently drawing a lot of parrallels to Broodwar Mech, and people aren't noticing it because symantics and visual differences. I have no opinion on this, I have never played broodwar. All I know is that the widowmines design in SC2 has what I consider very serious game design flaws. | ||
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gCgCrypto
Germany297 Posts
Did we make them change their plans? Usually, especially for beta, posts like this are followed by first patchnotes or further detail withing a day or two. I sure hope we at least made them work on the less fundemental issues such as Hellbat, Widdowmine, Hydra balance wise. I think we can already forget fundemental (design) issues such as Corruptor, Colosus, economy system, highground advantage, forcefields and warpgates for HotS, maby LotV. That would actually make sense since they don´t really want to add more units in LotV so why not clean up all the mess they create with WoL and HotS in LotV so ppl have to buy all 3 games to have a great SC2. Thats one hell of a business plan :D (for anyone who didnt see it, the last part is a joke, coming from my bitterness but still a joke ^^) | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 08 2013 07:12 nottapro wrote: So what your thinking is that Widowmine + Bioball is currently drawing a lot of parrallels to Broodwar Mech, and people aren't noticing it because symantics and visual differences. I have no opinion on this, I have never played broodwar. All I know is that the widowmines design in SC2 has what I consider very serious game design flaws. You know most of the time, people ask that you back up statments like this, rather than just saying them out loud then waiting for someone to disagree with you. For example, if I went "Golf is the the most difficult sport in the world. All other sports are flawed" you would think I would need to back that up with something. | ||
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