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Austria24417 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:22 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 08:18 MilesTeg wrote:On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote:
wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in? you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys
Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF
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On January 18 2013 08:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 08:22 xsnac wrote:On January 18 2013 08:18 MilesTeg wrote:On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote:
wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in? you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF
I think people seem to think that burrow movement is the same as burrow or something otherwise no idea why they are complaining about it when it won't hit any earlier rofl...
Also a toss will have an observer anyway so yeah...
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Just keep buffing terran i like i like
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On January 18 2013 08:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 08:22 xsnac wrote:On January 18 2013 08:18 MilesTeg wrote:On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote:
wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in? you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF
just wait  david kim will think about it and in no time he will put it hatch tech and maybe add some more hp to reaper so terrans no more need to scan 1 reaper can scout 5 bases and still survive since stalkers cant kill him with that speed
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You cant just move roaches without tunneling claws and this is still tier 2. I acutally like the patch its much less strange than the ones before. Note that burrow was tier 1 in BW and you could burrow lings in the way of the marine bioball to kill them off before they reached your expo.
But the huge problem is that HOTS needs more big changes. It is not 100% clear where they are heading and some paths they choose not to take looked much more promising (and seem to be favored by a lot of players on this very platform including myself).
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I'd rather they just bring back WoL reapers.
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4713 Posts
I see tons of ways burrow at hatch could backfire horribly and potentially break the early game in all MUs.
In ZvZ obviously the ability to 1 shot the entirety of the enemies army with just 1 bane will make push outs of any sorts after burrow, unfavorable, instead of making the MU more fun and volatile it would make it more passive and turtly, no one would want to move out until they have roaches and detection.
Same story in TvZ, the burrow upgrade would hit at a time where detection is harder to get, the terran is still at the stage where he needs to use orbital energy for mules to setup his economy, thus he can't afford to scan, and also ravens are a long way away from being made. It will make the early game a lot more passive and discourage move early move outs.
PvZ, while bane mines aren't as big of an issue here, the potential is still there to have a couple of banes in the right location to detonate on a bunch of sentries, effectively killing a push. After that there is potential for some earlier roach aggression, that would force many more cannons, because, if you don't have cannons, you can't detect and thus kill roaches, and they can wither away at you. Or it forces much earlier tech like SG and Robo just to survive against it if the attack comes early enough.
And while people can't see this as being viable yet, because of the standard builds and meta-game so far are to get just enough gas for speed and then all on minerals, what if defensive and even offensive burrowed banes, are so good that getting them out early enough gives you a huge window of time to drone?
Yeah it wouldn't be optimal with the current 1 gas, but with 2 gas and harvesting exactly 200 you could get burrow out at the same time as speed and definitely much earlier then you ever could before.
I think the cute little micro tricks Blizz wants to encourage pale in comparison to the magnitude to which this could actually backfire.
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On January 18 2013 08:15 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 08:09 Larkin wrote:Players are really forced to utilize the Reaper’s passive healing ability between attacks in order to maximize the unit’s efficiency. We'd like to further promote this type of play by slightly increasing Reaper health. Forced to utilise? I don't think people are like "oh no, I have to have my units regen their health before I can go and do even more economic damage in the early game, woe is me  " It's a gift as it is. I guess Blizz really wants Terrans to use Reapers. That can come out even earlier, move faster, have more health which regens. I fear that Nexus/Hatch first against Terran is going to become next to impossible if the Reaper keeps being buffed. Oh come on, new Reaper is not nearly as good as the one from the balance update #10 was. They are buffing it because it is back to being a scout again instead of doing economic damage.
You clearly haven't had 4 reapers appear in your main at 4 minutes and kill nearly all your workers.
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Activation timer for the VR is stupid imo, otherwise these changes look reasonable. I'd like to see +1 reaper damage still so it isn't quite as bad against roaches :3
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Austria24417 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:24 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 08:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 18 2013 08:22 xsnac wrote:On January 18 2013 08:18 MilesTeg wrote:On January 18 2013 07:58 Nazeron wrote:
wonder how the burrow will be utilized against the sentry immortal all in, over i like the changes a lot I don't understand how burrow is relevant to the sentry immortal all-in? you make tones of roaches , you burrow move under immortals you unborrow and PROFIT since 3 immortals wont kill more then 3-6 roaches while you move under and neighter will a handful of sentrys Well, burrow movement should still be at lair or that would be imbalanced as FFFFFFF I think people seem to think that burrow movement is the same as burrow or something otherwise no idea why they are complaining about it when it won't hit any earlier rofl... Also a toss will have an observer anyway so yeah...
Well no, the immortal all in moves out with 3 immortals and warp prism on the way. Then observer. But imagine a 2 base roach attack with burrow movement. There'd probably be no way to stop that, ever. That upgrade needs to stay on lair.
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patch those stupid banelings! zerglings can survive a bling hit with +1 armor but a marine can't? wtf
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I like this patch. making the reaper more viable after the damage nerf. Atleast now it serves its purpose as a more beefier scout and doesnt rape mineral lines. Burrow on hatch was a good move to I think. I usually never get that thing, but early game I always wish I did lol
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overall a good patch.
I guess i will always make a turret at my natural now since protosss have DT and zerg have burrow so quick now.
well,its no big deal for defence,i just hope i don't get caught in banetrap too often now.
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On January 18 2013 08:28 Destructicon wrote:
I see tons of ways burrow at hatch could backfire horribly and potentially break the early game in all MUs.
In ZvZ obviously the ability to 1 shot the entirety of the enemies army with just 1 bane will make push outs of any sorts after burrow, unfavorable, instead of making the MU more fun and volatile it would make it more passive and turtly, no one would want to move out until they have roaches and detection.
Same story in TvZ, the burrow upgrade would hit at a time where detection is harder to get, the terran is still at the stage where he needs to use orbital energy for mules to setup his economy, thus he can't afford to scan, and also ravens are a long way away from being made. It will make the early game a lot more passive and discourage move early move outs.
PvZ, while bane mines aren't as big of an issue here, the potential is still there to have a couple of banes in the right location to detonate on a bunch of sentries, effectively killing a push. After that there is potential for some earlier roach aggression, that would force many more cannons, because, if you don't have cannons, you can't detect and thus kill roaches, and they can wither away at you. Or it forces much earlier tech like SG and Robo just to survive against it if the attack comes early enough.
And while people can't see this as being viable yet, because of the standard builds and meta-game so far are to get just enough gas for speed and then all on minerals, what if defensive and even offensive burrowed banes, are so good that getting them out early enough gives you a huge window of time to drone?
Yeah it wouldn't be optimal with the current 1 gas, but with 2 gas and harvesting exactly 200 you could get burrow out at the same time as speed and definitely much earlier then you ever could before.
I think the cute little micro tricks Blizz wants to encourage pale in comparison to the magnitude to which this could actually backfire.
Some vaild points i dont tought about at the first time. You are right it might be horrible in ZvZ. The queen change alone makes a lot of maps save versus my strong ling bane play . I don't like 12 minute of nothingness that is ZvZ on some maps before they engage with this stupid generic armies.
But maybe it is the way blizzards wants the game to be, If you look at other aspects of the gameplay that very much favor 2 / 3 base play into maxout. The problem is really the high dps of baneling landmines. That makes the scary for marines and lings but in PvZ I think it would be much less of a problem?
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On January 18 2013 08:00 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 07:06 eviltomahawk wrote:
Burrow
We decided to move the Burrow upgrade requirement to the Hatchery, because we feel that early Burrow usage with units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches creates potential for more action during the early game. Furthermore, the initial feedback from players has been very positive regarding this change, and we've already seen Zerg internal testers pull off some neat tricks using Burrow. What you forget, dear David Kim, is: 1) This makes expansions even harder to take. Ever been blocked by creep? Now we also need to scan to land out command center. 2) When we push out, we need to be even more carefull --> burrowed banelings.
1) Wrong. You can't have burrow before your opponent can expand. Even a slower expand. If you mean the third, the zerg can (and should) already do exactly that in WoL.
2) This is true, but to invest in burrow AND banelings that early, you'll have a severe economic dent. You would require a pretty amazing baneling hit in order to get even.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
And in ZvZ you can kill burrowed units with your banes without detection. Just stay with overlord and see where enemy is burrowed.
The problem can be with burrowed roach blocking. But the counter can be creep and spore at the natural. At time of taking 3rd base zerg probably should have Lair.
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On January 18 2013 08:28 Destructicon wrote:
what if defensive and even offensive burrowed banes, are so good that getting them out early enough gives you a huge window of time to drone?
That's why they have a beta.
On January 18 2013 08:28 Destructicon wrote:
Yeah it wouldn't be optimal with the current 1 gas, but with 2 gas and harvesting exactly 200 you could get burrow out at the same time as speed and definitely much earlier then you ever could before.
There is a big difference, which is that ling speed builds a the spawning pool and burrow at your hatch. This means if you get burrow that early your second queen will be significantly delayed, and therefore also your early larvae (which is very expensive, because they are usually drones and early drones are zerg economic foundation). This means that you have to cut even more drones to use that early burrow. I doubt you will see a build like that a lot. But who knows, we will see.
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I hope they fucking fix the mac client already T_T But im sure they wont...
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Austria24417 Posts
Actually I take back what I said about the voidray change. Guess it does make sense.
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All zerg units can cloak for no energy or cooldown at hatchery tech... seems like zerg totally needed a buff *sarcasm*
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EPT
