EPTBurrow at tier 1 - officially! - Page 5
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Lesrah
Portugal110 Posts
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Mantaza
Germany87 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 15 2013 11:24 Mantaza wrote: Thats ok im Protoss player and i think its perfectly fine. Maybe we see some burrowed lings or early roaches to catch someone offguard. But I dont think it will have a huge Impact on the Pro Scene. The only thing I think that's going to be a problem is roach attacks. There's already a fairly crippling roach/baneling bust in ZvT as well as a powerful early roach push in ZvP. With an early burrow, roaches become much more powerful due to their health regeneration. While I know that 100/100 is a big investment when going for roaches, I can see something like this either a) being upgraded instead of zergling speed for a more powerful roach push or b) finishing around the same time as zergling speed for a stronger roach/ling all-in. In theory, if a zerg player were able to get out about 10 roaches and use burrow micro perfectly, they could continually pump roaches and eventually overwhelm the opponent before they got detection. Of course, I'm sure there are counters if you look at the bigger picture and such. I'm just saying that roaches MIGHT be problematic, so I'll be keeping my eye on that. I don't think early burrowed lings or super early burrowed banelings will be terrible; players will just have to be a little more cautious moving out. This might also provide terran with a good reason to grab an early raven every game. | ||
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PaperPrinter
33 Posts
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Virid
United States130 Posts
Burrow is significantly more powerful as a defensive tool than an offensive one. Now if an opposing race wants to be aggressive in the early game they'll need detection. This is particularly powerful against things like reapers, hellions, MSC, Oracles, and banshees. Burrowed banelings is incredibly powerful to have that early in the game, and burrowed roaches without movement can only do so much harass. I don't have much faith in this shifting Zerg is any meaningful way to being anything other than "defend until Hive, then a-move" race. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 15 2013 11:40 Virid wrote: It's a bad idea. Burrow is significantly more powerful as a defensive tool than an offensive one. Now if an opposing race wants to be aggressive in the early game they'll need detection. This is particularly powerful against things like reapers, hellions, MSC, Oracles, and banshees. Burrowed banelings is incredibly powerful to have that early in the game, and burrowed roaches without movement can only do so much harass. I don't have much faith in this shifting Zerg is any meaningful way to being anything other than "defend until Hive, then a-move" race. Explain to me why burrow is strong against MsC, oracles, or banshees? | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
On January 15 2013 11:53 SC2John wrote: Explain to me why burrow is strong against MsC, oracles, or banshees? Burrowing drones and weak queens. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
While you're researching burrow, you can't make queens for 100+ seconds, it delays your lair also | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
Early burrow is an OFFENSIVE ability, not defensive. 100/100 early on is worth at least as much as 300/0. That's 2 queens, or 2 spines. You would hold early harass much more effectively with the extra defensive units than with Burrow and no defenses. After all, burrow does nothing to kill off the enemy units, and they can toast your larvae and hatch if you can't stop them. | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
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playnice
Malaysia302 Posts
On January 15 2013 11:34 SC2John wrote: The only thing I think that's going to be a problem is roach attacks. There's already a fairly crippling roach/baneling bust in ZvT as well as a powerful early roach push in ZvP. With an early burrow, roaches become much more powerful due to their health regeneration. While I know that 100/100 is a big investment when going for roaches, I can see something like this either a) being upgraded instead of zergling speed for a more powerful roach push or b) finishing around the same time as zergling speed for a stronger roach/ling all-in. In theory, if a zerg player were able to get out about 10 roaches and use burrow micro perfectly, they could continually pump roaches and eventually overwhelm the opponent before they got detection. Of course, I'm sure there are counters if you look at the bigger picture and such. I'm just saying that roaches MIGHT be problematic, so I'll be keeping my eye on that. I don't think early burrowed lings or super early burrowed banelings will be terrible; players will just have to be a little more cautious moving out. This might also provide terran with a good reason to grab an early raven every game. There will exist windows for strong burrowed roach push, but it will be kinda hard to pull off since: a) No ling speed burrow roach push will be with slow roaches as well, plus Protoss now have the MsC to defend. b) roach/ling all-in with speed and burrow is really gas heavy in the early game and thus the all in will be very delayed. I guess 1 photon cannon at the natural might not be enough any more. Still roach micro isn't that effective without burrow movement. Zealots would actually do well against burrow roaches in this situations cause they will just stand on top of them once the roaches burrow. | ||
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Rumpus
United States136 Posts
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Sayscho BoB
17 Posts
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Nightshade_
United States549 Posts
On January 15 2013 09:59 Existor wrote: decrease reaper sensor range to 4-5 and it becomes less strong versus surprizes 3 reapers and spread them, it's a bad idea because it will just totally remove the purpose of burrow at hatch tech. | ||
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playnice
Malaysia302 Posts
Oracles detect, Terrans can scan, if you burrow your drones or queen they are just sitting ducks. MsC was never a harassing unit to begin with, and you can still force mining and inject timing losses by forcing burrow. | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
On January 15 2013 13:15 playnice wrote: Oracles detect, Terrans can scan, if you burrow your drones or queen they are just sitting ducks. MsC was never a harassing unit to begin with, and you can still force mining and inject timing losses by forcing burrow. Expensive for harass energy, and expensive for mining cost, and MsC as support for recall is what was meant. On January 15 2013 12:07 Existor wrote: While you're researching burrow, you can't make queens for 100+ seconds, it delays your lair also I'm not sure how this responds to what I said. On January 15 2013 12:11 Piousflea wrote: Tier 1 burrow sounds amazing for so many reasons. Roach burrow micro in early game. Ling and bane ambushes. Burrowing lings away from enemy detection to force a scan. All sorts of fun moves. Early burrow is an OFFENSIVE ability, not defensive. 100/100 early on is worth at least as much as 300/0. That's 2 queens, or 2 spines. You would hold early harass much more effectively with the extra defensive units than with Burrow and no defenses. After all, burrow does nothing to kill off the enemy units, and they can toast your larvae and hatch if you can't stop them. In every way that this is good offensively, it is doubly good defensively. Burrowing banelings near your base is intensely powerful against all ground pushes, which forces additional investment from the aggressor to mitigate. Roaches are good for burrow micro when you're attacking an opponent's front door, but Roach burrow is even better when you're trying to just barely hold off timings as you'll be on creep and closer to your production to mitigate the issues of having slow roaches. | ||
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People_0f_Color
177 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
3 reapers and spread them, it's a bad idea because it will just totally remove the purpose of burrow at hatch tech. It still forces terran to use scans. Also reaper sensor can be activable ability with short time and long coldown | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
This add options and may remove some of the NR20 game to add some low econ pressure game back, I am really looking forward to this | ||
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