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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
People are talking here about settng up traps and such: that's defensive. Explain to me how burrow is going to help vs bunkers and widow mines? Maybe only to regen roaches a bit in mid battle. It could allow for some early game offensive micro by the zerg. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On January 17 2013 16:48 Ketch wrote: If you do a roach-ling all-in, the burrow upgrade could help you to micro damaged roaches while staying on tier 1. Of course, tier 2 would offer roach speed, but still with burrow I could imagine some more options to all-in.Soooo.....In my opinion, this burrow change is only an early game defensive buff and not an offensive one. Even if it turns out that faster lair is generally preferable to early burrow, one would still have the option for a landmine surprise. It also just feels better (more diverse) than a Wol zerg in the early game. | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On January 17 2013 20:28 Eatme wrote: Brings back memories from bw with two groups of lings in two parts of the opponents base burrowing one group while harassing with the other ect. Soo much fun was had. That would be me :p | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 17 2013 23:00 knOxStarcraft wrote: What zerg needs far more than burrow, in my mind, is a hydra buff. I say this because pheonix voidray kills hydra, which is meant to be zergs anti air. Idk about you other zergs but I'm fairly sick of having to build infestors against pheonix. Well, that's the way Starcraft antiair is designed. It sucks by design, due to too few units that can attack air and too many air units that are stable combat units... Air should be designed like in CnC (non-combat tactical units) or nearly any unit should be able to attack air and not being capable to do so should be left as a major drawback for extremly powerful antiground units like artillery. So basically, the way starcraft air works, the only semi-good ground to air implementations are marines and stalkers. Imo Hydras shouldn't be zergs main antiair... they are just not interesting at all in that role. Though then the question arises, what should be zergs main antiair? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 18 2013 01:18 Big J wrote: Well, that's the way Starcraft antiair is designed. It sucks by design, due to too few units that can attack air and too many air units that are stable combat units... Air should be designed like in CnC (non-combat tactical units) or nearly any unit should be able to attack air and not being capable to do so should be left as a major drawback for extremly powerful antiground units like artillery. So basically, the way starcraft air works, the only semi-good ground to air implementations are marines and stalkers. Imo Hydras shouldn't be zergs main antiair... they are just not interesting at all in that role. Though then the question arises, what should be zergs main antiair? Hydras are the only interesting anti air zerg has and they're really good at what they do. Phoenix void ray works because it allows them to pick up some of your anti air, which is good play. Hydras don't stuck for that reason, just focus fire pheonixs that are picking up your stuff. Corrupters are arguably the most boring, by design but best anti air in the game. They destroy everything. | ||
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Rokit5
236 Posts
On January 15 2013 08:12 Vindicare605 wrote: I do not like this idea one bit. It's intended as a buff to aggressive openings but all this does is increase the power of Zerg defensively. Early harassment is going to be pointless if Drones are able to burrow which forces out scans and observers. A large number of early game timings are going to be completely shut down by the possibility of Burrowed Banelings from Terran and Roaches that can burrow micro. It's the same problem I have with the Mothership Core and the Widow Mine, it limits TOO much what can be done in each match up in the early game. Borrow at tier one increases what can be done in the early game. Also borrowed lings can be offensively, since you can borrow a group of lings outside your opponents nat, and when he moves out counter with your borrowed lings, forcing him back and thus buying time. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 18 2013 01:36 Qikz wrote: Hydras are the only interesting anti air zerg has and they're really good at what they do. Phoenix void ray works because it allows them to pick up some of your anti air, which is good play. Hydras don't stuck for that reason, just focus fire pheonixs that are picking up your stuff. Corrupters are arguably the most boring, by design but best anti air in the game. They destroy everything. Hydras are extremely boring ground vs air units. Their weakness and most interesting part is that they have to hide behind beefier units - something that air units dont care about because they don't need to fight through that buffer and can go straight for the hydras. So it comes down to mass hydra (nothing else. Not unit composition. Just Hydras) vs air. And Hydras don't have any interesting control available. They don't outrange air units to pick them off. They are not hard to produce, so you just build a mass of them. They cannot kite very well and it wouldn't make sense to begin with as they are outranged by nearly everything in the air. Balancing Hydras to be Zergs main anti air in lategame scenarios means that you press s-hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and you win the battle by amove. Edit: That doesn't mean I want Corruptors to be Zergs "solution" to massive airarmies. Corruptors should be mainly to deal with capital air ships and colossi. Imo it would be nice if they found a balance between corruptors to counter the big ones, hydra/Infestor/Viper/muta to be a reasonable force against the rest. Imo Zerg wouldn't even need to straight up win against air armies in a big battle (due to mobility), if there were more standard ways to whittle the army down with less expensive units. Sadly it is not possible, with hydras being the only "standard" zerg unit that can attack air. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
It's just the way the game is and always has been. Zergs anti air worked exactly the same in Broodwar had it not been for the scourge it would have pretty much been pure hydra and even they didn't outrange most air units. The whole mass of one unit thing is what zerg has done since the beginning of Starcraft 1. Zerg can't have units that are super versatile due to how they're built, it would be massively imbalanced and make mass air even worse if Hydras could outrange the majority of air units. It's why the infestor was so damn broken, there was no need or require to build anything else. | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 18 2013 03:31 Novalisk wrote: Pretty sure this was asked before, but how does this affect early detection? I imagine getting your expo burrow blocked early would be pretty impactful. • Rocket Turret/Engineering walling and you can kill zerglings easily • Explode 1 baneling to kill burrowed zergling and no problem again • Protoss always starting FFE with pylon and photon • Terran can do scan for first built Orbital Command instead mule | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 18 2013 01:45 Big J wrote: Hydras are extremely boring ground vs air units. Hydralisks are only boring because people are told to expect fanciful and interesting units for EVERYTHING. Thats not how a game like this can work, because if "everything is special then nothing is special anymore" and frankly you can overload the game with too many gimmicks as well. Blizzard is on the way to achieve this last point. The Hydralisk is pretty close to what it was in BW and it wasnt exactly boring / useless there, so the excitement doesnt only come from the unit stats themselves but rather from people using the units in an exciting way. Just my thoughts on your way of looking at the Hydralisk and you can have your point of view just as well, BUT a word of advice from an old pessimist here: If you dont expect much you prettey much ALWAYS have positive surprises in your life (except where the Blizzard dev team is involved) and it frankly is the same for units. Dont expect them to be funky and they become interesting at strange moments; expect them to be funky and you will be disappointed most of the time. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 18 2013 02:46 Qikz wrote: Marines are pretty much the only "standard" terran unit that can attack air if you're looking at it that way. Marines also don't outrange air units and against air they rarely have any interesting micro, it's just stim and move under whatevers killing you (that's why maps need more dead air space to allow for air armies to work against bio). It's just the way the game is and always has been. Zergs anti air worked exactly the same in Broodwar had it not been for the scourge it would have pretty much been pure hydra and even they didn't outrange most air units. The whole mass of one unit thing is what zerg has done since the beginning of Starcraft 1. Zerg can't have units that are super versatile due to how they're built, it would be massively imbalanced and make mass air even worse if Hydras could outrange the majority of air units. It's why the infestor was so damn broken, there was no need or require to build anything else. Yes, it has always been bad. There is nothing wrong with units that rely on airs core design - mobility+no terrain restrictions. (mutalisk, phoenix, banshee, corsair, drop ships) Also there are some units that may be interesting because of specific mechanics - Carriers having the "Interceptor vulnerability" that makes it behave like "mass low tier" in a combat and actually needs to be microed (BW). To a certain degree Broodlords/Guardians, because even though they are top notch combat units, they cannot attack air at all and therefore any AtA attacking unit is a good unit vs them. Maybe Tempests because they are very costinefficient vs low tier units - though that has to be figuered. And then we have units like BCs, VoidRays, maybe Tempests, maybe broodlords, that are mostly straight up combat units and force the game into having counters like Corruptors or Vikings (or VoidRays, Tempests themselves) that are exclusively good vs them. Else you couldn't counter something like mass BC, mass void ray, mass Broodlord if they are supported well enough. So basically, there are units in the game like the BC which cannot be costefficient vs standard GtA units, so they have to be supplyefficient vs them or they are rubbish, but that means that there must be "BC-counter units" in the game. (same arguement goes for the other units that I named) Just read any comment on "Mech vs Air". People don't want to be forced into building only Vikings, just because their opponent chooses to only build Carriers or Broodlords. And I don't think that Goliath's instead of Vikings and Thors make that so much more fun. Your whole strategy gets dumbed down to building Goliaths in that case, because the opponents air units are still all "invulnerable" vs everything else. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rgEzI.jpg) People don't think it is very fun to be limited to only one very certain strategy/unit, because of the opponent's strategy. But that is what happens if you design air the way it is in Starcraft. The better way to do it (imo), would be to either only put noncombat air units in the game or to make (nearly) every unit capable of attacking air, so that yes, you might need a specific counter in the longrun against a specific airstrategy, but the units you already have are already good. And also units like the BC or the Voidray wouldn't have to be soooo terribly costinefficient if nearly every unit could attack them and could see more play. On January 18 2013 04:16 Rabiator wrote: Hydralisks are only boring because people are told to expect fanciful and interesting units for EVERYTHING. Thats not how a game like this can work, because if "everything is special then nothing is special anymore" and frankly you can overload the game with too many gimmicks as well. Blizzard is on the way to achieve this last point. The Hydralisk is pretty close to what it was in BW and it wasnt exactly boring / useless there, so the excitement doesnt only come from the unit stats themselves but rather from people using the units in an exciting way. Just my thoughts on your way of looking at the Hydralisk and you can have your point of view just as well, BUT a word of advice from an old pessimist here: If you dont expect much you prettey much ALWAYS have positive surprises in your life (except where the Blizzard dev team is involved) and it frankly is the same for units. Dont expect them to be funky and they become interesting at strange moments; expect them to be funky and you will be disappointed most of the time. Yes, but SC2 isn't broodwar and producing + moving 50hydralisks from A to B is very easy. As can be seen with 200/200 roach strategies. The same could be said about bio, but wait. Bio does rely on fancy micro, fancy drop play and fancy stim buttons. I'm not saying the game needs fancy buttons. But a unit needs interesting dynamics in its usage. I guess with speed+vipers the situation has gotten much better - for as long as the hydralisks stays somewhat weak in direct combat and can't just a move without pulling out units or poking back and forward (though it might be slightly too weak right now; not sure; people use it a lot in HotS, so it's going to be a question of figuering and balancing). | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
Burrow in T1 will be up soon | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On January 17 2013 16:48 Ketch wrote: Soooo.....In my opinion, this burrow change is only an early game defensive buff and not an offensive one. People are talking here about settng up traps and such: that's defensive. Explain to me how burrow is going to help vs bunkers and widow mines? Maybe only to regen roaches a bit in mid battle. It could allow for some early game offensive micro by the zerg. Ok, I'll explain...think about it, in what situation is it smart to get that upgrade pre-Lair if you're being defensive? I'd rather get more roaches, banelings and queens for that cost, and get an earlier Lair (that is still the point of being defensive isn't it? affording better stuff). The only time when getting an early burrow makes sense is if you're going for a roach timing; that may or may not be viable (or even OP, I don't really know but I highly doubt it). Anyway that should impact absolutely nothing in ZvP, probably nothing in ZvT unless a strong roach timing emerges (I'll be sure to try it :p), and it might have some interesting implications in ZvZ. We'll see, it's not the biggest change obviously but it's a fun new toy to play with. | ||
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