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On January 17 2013 05:56 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 04:33 sagefreke wrote:On January 17 2013 03:39 ZjiublingZ wrote:On January 17 2013 03:11 sagefreke wrote:On January 17 2013 02:51 LavaLava wrote:
I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups. I can see burrow roaches being used to thwart Terran and Protoss FE by having the roaches peck away at a pylon/forge/bunker/depot and the. Burrowing the roaches that are injured and having them resurface. It definitely seems like it could provide a decent means for Zerg to cost effectively harass/punish FE without having to go all in like it is right now. I think you are underestimating 1) The cost of Burrow and it's effect on the strength of an early rush 2) the time it would take to get Burrow AFTER you make your 2 Queens, and the lateness of these rushes and 3) the ability for players to scout this very early on and react accordingly. 1. Burrow can be taken in place of ling speed since they are the same cost. 2. There's nothing saying you cant research burrow after getting 2 queens out or even just making both queens on one hatch while researching burrow on one. For that matter theres nothing saying the Zerg cabt start off with one queen on 2 hatch and use te other 150 for the warren. We honestly don't know the possibilities yet until this is actually implemented 3. Scouting can be denied like always. 1. If burrow is taken in place of ling speed it's even easier to scout it, you just scout the lack of 3rd, which imply that he's taking his gas, and see that he doesnt have ling speed at the usual timing through Xel'naga. 2. I dont see anything wrong with that, but burrow still take a full 100 seconds to complete 3. If you cut zergling speed scouting cannot be denied
1. How would it be easier to scout it? The only indication would be the spawning pool animation which can be denied with lings/queen
2. I'm not sure on the exact time it takes for ling speed to complete but I'm pretty sure it's 100-110 seconds. So it's the same amount if not earlier
3. Queen at the ramp and a set of lings
Obviously no 3rd will be an indication but my thoughts are going towards changing the early game meta where it becomes either not possible for T/P to hold the expansion against early roach aggression or it makes it so that it is economically not a good idea due to the damage the roach aggression incurs on their economy. Obviously the lack of a quick 3rd will be some indication of aggression but that's what Zergs want right now. Zergs are absolutely tired of 3 base play where try tech to hive in 13 minutes. Hopefully burrow at tier 1 will change that.
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On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway  .
Scans during early-midgame harass are punishing to terran. Someone making 8 hellions pre-lair for a run by is taking a risk relying on doing damage, so it is more reasonable for them to save a scan for their all-in(ish) tactic. What this change does in such context is facilitate harsher binary conditions (ie: It is not worth it to scan when harassing with a hellion number without the capacity to 3 or 4 shot a burrowed mineral line, so the condition where a Terran player is attempting to actuate a safe, structured play-style (that is independent of all-in risks) no longer has the capacity to threaten the drone count of a zerg player who is at all above low masters (before the time in which burrow would generally be available). I feel like the offset of burrow's research cost will not be equivalent, but it will be interesting and exciting to experiment with.
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i guess this change would effect ZvZ most.
Because in ling baneling wars, you won't be able to kill drones at all making attacking earlygame absurd.
Also burrowed banelings would effect zerglings most.
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On January 17 2013 07:19 freetgy wrote:
i guess this change would effect ZvZ most.
Because in ling baneling wars, you won't be able to kill drones at all making attacking earlygame absurd.
Also burrowed banelings would effect zerglings most.
In ling/bling wars it is really hard to afford something extra like 100/100. I mean... great you burrow your stuff. I have more. If you unburrow your stuff dies, if you don't your base dies.
And due to zergling highspeed it is way harder to hit them, than it is to hit something slow like marines.
Also manual detonation works on burrowed units anyways... And with spores not requiring an evo chamber, I think detection can be achieved resonably early.
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On January 17 2013 06:22 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:58 Mortal wrote:On January 17 2013 03:53 Berailfor wrote:
Yeah I really think this would be a horrible change. There is way too much early potential for it and on top of it like people said you can save all your stuff via burrow unless there is detection. Heck Protoss have already been complaining a ton of the NEED to go robotics tech every game which lowers play diversity. Should this also be the case against Zerg?! Especially considering the Zerg is the race that if they know what your doing they get a huge advantage because they can produce drones and units directly according to your build. The last thing I want is to have to go robo tech every game considering it's the most boring of all the options available. I seem to remember something about the oracle detecting for a time. I hate opening robo as much as anyone else, so I think I WOULD agree if that were actually the case, when it's not anymore. It isn't permanent detection I thought though? Doesn't it cost energy? If so it doesn't seem a viable option if there is a threat of burrow roaches.
I think it lasts for 30 seconds and for 50 energy cost. It isn't as good as Observer, but it still lasts long enough and can be used multiple times.
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On January 17 2013 06:39 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . Scans during early-midgame harass are punishing to terran. Someone making 8 hellions pre-lair for a run by is taking a risk relying on doing damage, so it is more reasonable for them to save a scan for their all-in(ish) tactic. What this change does in such context is facilitate harsher binary conditions (ie: It is not worth it to scan when harassing with a hellion number without the capacity to 3 or 4 shot a burrowed mineral line, so the condition where a Terran player is attempting to actuate a safe, structured play-style (that is independent of all-in risks) no longer has the capacity to threaten the drone count of a zerg player who is at all above low masters (before the time in which burrow would generally be available). I feel like the offset of burrow's research cost will not be equivalent, but it will be interesting and exciting to experiment with.
1 scan to kill 20+ drones is worth it no matter what. If they have 8 hellion sand they are going into a mineral line they are going to die anyway, if the drones burrow the terran player should have a scan and a giant grin on his face as all the drones die because they can't split either once burrowed.
If it's only 4 hellions odds are they get in the mineral line before burrow is done anyway. It has a decent research time and isn't going to be started till like 6-7 minutes at the earliest in most situations.
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I hate to do this, but hoenstly more aggression? Zergling speed is not aggressive enough in run-by situations? In both TvZ and PvZ, Terrans and Protosses players quiver at the thought of being surrounded by Speedlings. T and P stay in base until they feel ready to embark on a journey into the center map, usually only to be greeted with an impending approach by Speedlings and Roaches. If Blizzard honestly do choose to give Zergs more ways to be aggressive, all tournaments would revolve around both T and P getting mobile detection before moving out, thus slowing down the pace of the game and condemning any match up against Z to a game of chicken.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Zergling speed is not aggressive enough in run-by situations?
You have widow mines and walls with bunkers
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On January 17 2013 06:39 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . Scans during early-midgame harass are punishing to terran. Someone making 8 hellions pre-lair for a run by is taking a risk relying on doing damage, so it is more reasonable for them to save a scan for their all-in(ish) tactic. What this change does in such context is facilitate harsher binary conditions (ie: It is not worth it to scan when harassing with a hellion number without the capacity to 3 or 4 shot a burrowed mineral line, so the condition where a Terran player is attempting to actuate a safe, structured play-style (that is independent of all-in risks) no longer has the capacity to threaten the drone count of a zerg player who is at all above low masters (before the time in which burrow would generally be available). I feel like the offset of burrow's research cost will not be equivalent, but it will be interesting and exciting to experiment with.
I remember a game not to long ago where there were no mules where scanning was great and that no one complained they had to build workers what a world that was.
Also if you have 8 hellions in a mineral line you are doing a runby that is luck based to begin with you were not planning for a even macro game you are relying on this doing dmg now you just have to have 1 scan with it to be sure your attack works. I'm not understanding what is wrong.
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I think it's a great idea. It will make the the early game more dynamic, which is nothing but good. It adds some fun traps and tactics for zergs that encourage micro, rather than the early game macro fests we see in WoL! And it allows zergs to use these tactics both defensively and offensively, to survive or deal damage, and rewards better players more.
If it is too powerful, they'll give the other races better ways to deal with it. So don't worry about how strong or weak it is at the moment. Just imagine the possibilities that a simple change like this opens up. It means more fun for players and for spectators. Will those stalkers walk right over the burrowed lings?!! Suspense is what makes things exciting to watch, and moving burrow to hatchery tech would add more suspense to zerg matchups.
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On January 17 2013 07:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 07:19 freetgy wrote:
i guess this change would effect ZvZ most.
Because in ling baneling wars, you won't be able to kill drones at all making attacking earlygame absurd.
Also burrowed banelings would effect zerglings most. In ling/bling wars it is really hard to afford something extra like 100/100. I mean... great you burrow your stuff. I have more. If you unburrow your stuff dies, if you don't your base dies. And due to zergling highspeed it is way harder to hit them, than it is to hit something slow like marines. Also manual detonation works on burrowed units anyways... And with spores not requiring an evo chamber, I think detection can be achieved resonably early.
Well 2 points,
1) If you just sit the banelings over the mineral line the opponent will either be completely denied mining unless he engages them.
2) If you detonate a baneling by pressing the detonate key the splash effects burrowed units.
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On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway .
You know a lot more than me blade (I'm a silver scrub) but I just wanted to note that when you burrow mining workers they are pretty well spread and it would take quite a while to roast them all. Yes it would be easily doable in a single scan, but it would take a lot longer than the speed at which you can kill a fleeing line of workers.
I have seen pro players split drones in every direction when hellions come in to minimise damage. Splitting like this would still be more effective than both fleeing in a single line or than burrowing, but it it also the most time consuming of your options. Burrow on the other hand would be less time consuming than splitting, require less baby sitting than fleeing in a line (because you don't need to dodge flames). So I feel that there will be times when burrowing is the best choice, altho that would be far from the majority of the time.
Just my 2 silver cents
Edit: And the title of this OP is still very misleading. Burrow is still not officially in. It's just being internally tested, and they have not even conclusively said that they will test it on the beta.
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On January 17 2013 08:16 Fig wrote:
I think it's a great idea. It will make the the early game more dynamic, which is nothing but good. It adds some fun traps and tactics for zergs that encourage micro, rather than the early game macro fests we see in WoL! And it allows zergs to use these tactics both defensively and offensively, to survive or deal damage, and rewards better players more.
If it is too powerful, they'll give the other races better ways to deal with it. So don't worry about how strong or weak it is at the moment. Just imagine the possibilities that a simple change like this opens up. It means more fun for players and for spectators. Will those stalkers walk right over the burrowed lings?!! Suspense is what makes things exciting to watch, and moving burrow to hatchery tech would add more suspense to zerg matchups.
That's the only reason I'm holding my tongue. Because burrow Roach/Ling and unkillable Drones in the current meta is just going to ruin the early game. Protoss is in dire need of some early love too (and air deathball nerf), seeing how Zealots are laughable in small numbers and utter shit at really exerting any control in the early game. As much as I love the MsC sitting on the 3rd expo and preventing an expand, there should be more dynamic involved.
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For once, I think this is a great move by blizzard. Decision making and skill are actually encouraged by this patch.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 17 2013 08:39 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . You know a lot more than me blade (I'm a silver scrub) but I just wanted to note that when you burrow mining workers they are pretty well spread and it would take quite a while to roast them all. Yes it would be easily doable in a single scan, but it would take a lot longer than the speed at which you can kill a fleeing line of workers. I have seen pro players split drones in every direction when hellions come in to minimise damage. Splitting like this would still be more effective than both fleeing in a single line or than burrowing, but it it also the most time consuming of your options. Burrow on the other hand would be less time consuming than splitting, require less baby sitting than fleeing in a line (because you don't need to dodge flames). So I feel that there will be times when burrowing is the best choice, altho that would be far from the majority of the time. Just my 2 silver cents Edit: And the title of this OP is still very misleading. Burrow is still not officially in. It's just being internally tested, and they have not even conclusively said that they will test it on the beta.
I agree with this post. I can't really see a time when you'd straight-up burrow instead of splitting workers. I imagine that's kind of good for lower leagues, but for the upper half (masters+GMs), splitting is still going to be stronger and safer. Maybe a split and then burrow might be pretty good, but burrow is just going to put your drones in a static, vulnerable position that, IF the terran player decides they can use a scan, can spell inevitable doom for the zerg player.
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On January 17 2013 08:39 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . You know a lot more than me blade (I'm a silver scrub) but I just wanted to note that when you burrow mining workers they are pretty well spread and it would take quite a while to roast them all. Yes it would be easily doable in a single scan, but it would take a lot longer than the speed at which you can kill a fleeing line of workers. I have seen pro players split drones in every direction when hellions come in to minimise damage. Splitting like this would still be more effective than both fleeing in a single line or than burrowing, but it it also the most time consuming of your options. Burrow on the other hand would be less time consuming than splitting, require less baby sitting than fleeing in a line (because you don't need to dodge flames). So I feel that there will be times when burrowing is the best choice, altho that would be far from the majority of the time. Just my 2 silver cents Edit: And the title of this OP is still very misleading. Burrow is still not officially in. It's just being internally tested, and they have not even conclusively said that they will test it on the beta.
Still even with burrowing your drones while splitting them they are still going to all be in the scan radius and are all going to die. It would be better almost not to burrow in that instance just so that you can hopefully run some away.
Also if you are trying to spli tand burrow do take into account that the hellions are in the mineral line. You don't exactly have a lot of time to split them all and then burrow. They will be dying as they split then burrow. Either way 8 hellions in a mineral line burrowed or not most or a ton are going to die unless terran for some reason doesn't have a scan or decides to be generous and not use it.
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On January 17 2013 11:42 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 08:39 DeCoup wrote:On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . You know a lot more than me blade (I'm a silver scrub) but I just wanted to note that when you burrow mining workers they are pretty well spread and it would take quite a while to roast them all. Yes it would be easily doable in a single scan, but it would take a lot longer than the speed at which you can kill a fleeing line of workers. I have seen pro players split drones in every direction when hellions come in to minimise damage. Splitting like this would still be more effective than both fleeing in a single line or than burrowing, but it it also the most time consuming of your options. Burrow on the other hand would be less time consuming than splitting, require less baby sitting than fleeing in a line (because you don't need to dodge flames). So I feel that there will be times when burrowing is the best choice, altho that would be far from the majority of the time. Just my 2 silver cents Edit: And the title of this OP is still very misleading. Burrow is still not officially in. It's just being internally tested, and they have not even conclusively said that they will test it on the beta. Still even with burrowing your drones while splitting them they are still going to all be in the scan radius and are all going to die. It would be better almost not to burrow in that instance just so that you can hopefully run some away. Also if you are trying to spli tand burrow do take into account that the hellions are in the mineral line. You don't exactly have a lot of time to split them all and then burrow. They will be dying as they split then burrow. Either way 8 hellions in a mineral line burrowed or not most or a ton are going to die unless terran for some reason doesn't have a scan or decides to be generous and not use it.
going to have to go against this one. since talking about t1 here, scan energy is a gamble that favors the zerg. even if a scan is available, burrowing the drones opens the "area" around the minerals for greater zergling/roach/queen maneuvability, and becomes infinitely harder for terran to manually click on burrowed drones to attack.
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Hmmmm...
Air at T1
Cliff Jump at T1
Now, Burrow at T1
I like the direction things are going
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On January 17 2013 12:28 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:42 blade55555 wrote:On January 17 2013 08:39 DeCoup wrote:On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . You know a lot more than me blade (I'm a silver scrub) but I just wanted to note that when you burrow mining workers they are pretty well spread and it would take quite a while to roast them all. Yes it would be easily doable in a single scan, but it would take a lot longer than the speed at which you can kill a fleeing line of workers. I have seen pro players split drones in every direction when hellions come in to minimise damage. Splitting like this would still be more effective than both fleeing in a single line or than burrowing, but it it also the most time consuming of your options. Burrow on the other hand would be less time consuming than splitting, require less baby sitting than fleeing in a line (because you don't need to dodge flames). So I feel that there will be times when burrowing is the best choice, altho that would be far from the majority of the time. Just my 2 silver cents Edit: And the title of this OP is still very misleading. Burrow is still not officially in. It's just being internally tested, and they have not even conclusively said that they will test it on the beta. Still even with burrowing your drones while splitting them they are still going to all be in the scan radius and are all going to die. It would be better almost not to burrow in that instance just so that you can hopefully run some away. Also if you are trying to spli tand burrow do take into account that the hellions are in the mineral line. You don't exactly have a lot of time to split them all and then burrow. They will be dying as they split then burrow. Either way 8 hellions in a mineral line burrowed or not most or a ton are going to die unless terran for some reason doesn't have a scan or decides to be generous and not use it. going to have to go against this one. since talking about t1 here, scan energy is a gamble that favors the zerg. even if a scan is available, burrowing the drones opens the "area" around the minerals for greater zergling/roach/queen maneuvability, and becomes infinitely harder for terran to manually click on burrowed drones to attack.
If a terran is going to run 8 hellions into a zergs mineral line why he wouldn't have a scan after this patch blows my mind. Losing 8 hellions and not getting any drones is going to be hilarious if terrans don't save a scan when they go for this.
You also have to realize at earliest 99% of the zergs will start the upgrade at 6-7 minutes, I believe the upgrade is 100 seconds so you won't even be able to use it until 8-9 minutes into the game.
This assumes zerg doesn't get speed/upgrades/lair first either. I don't see this upgrade being a big deal at all especially if it's only used for early game defense.
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EPT
