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On January 16 2013 08:30 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 08:28 TheLunatic wrote:
Give detection back to msc if this is gonna happen Why? Just push with stargate tech or robo tech. Isn't that what happens anyway? Also it's not as if burrowed banelings even do anything to protoss units anyway.
vVvTitan used to be able to hold 6 gate +1 with only burrowed banelings and zerglings on maps like xel naga.... They're really really good if you use them right.
PvZ... I think it's pretty straight forward what any protoss will say about what they think on this if it happens. I think there are many other avenues blizzard has not explored and is toying around with things that are just going to get tweaked again and again if they tinker with them.. Wasted time they could have been doing bigger better things for all races imo...
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On January 16 2013 15:04 Toads wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 14:39 ineversmile wrote:
Wouldn't it be better just to make burrow cheaper and/or reduce its research time, but keep it at Lair tech? The point is to make burrow a part of the game at an earlier time...it could still be Lair tech, but just take 60 seconds. Or 40 seconds. And it could be like WG research and just cost 50/50. It doesn't have to be so exaggeratedly-early, and at least if there's Lair tech required the opponent could scout the hatcheries, see one of them is (upgrading too/finished) lair, and then play around burrow.
The point of this buff is to give zerg an opportunity to be aggresive on hatch tech because right now it's not possible if you don't all in
@ ineversmile, i totally agree. That would be much more helpful imo.
@ Toads, yes, zerg needs more opportunities to be aggressive on hatch tech, burrow is defensive tho (if you dont commit to a roach allin/semiallin). Those allins where already playable without burrow but with speedlingfollowup instead. I cant see how burrow would be better regards that.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 16 2013 15:04 Toads wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 14:39 ineversmile wrote:
Wouldn't it be better just to make burrow cheaper and/or reduce its research time, but keep it at Lair tech? The point is to make burrow a part of the game at an earlier time...it could still be Lair tech, but just take 60 seconds. Or 40 seconds. And it could be like WG research and just cost 50/50. It doesn't have to be so exaggeratedly-early, and at least if there's Lair tech required the opponent could scout the hatcheries, see one of them is (upgrading too/finished) lair, and then play around burrow.
I'm with MorroW on all his arguments--I think it's too random for the game. We don't need more coinflips in this game. The point of this buff is to give zerg an opportunity to be aggresive on hatch tech because right now it's not possible if you don't all in
Oh you mean like all the various roach/bane pressure behind which you can take a third in TvZ (some are all-in, others aren't)? Or perhaps this the 9 minute roach/ling thing they have been doing in PvZ? Or doing a couple of rounds of injects of lings to snipe sentries when protoss takes a third?
Zerg needed/needs options at Lair tech, not Hatch tech. Possibly options that don't constrict map design as horribly as Roach max does.
Besides, as many people have pointed out, Burrow is actually a defensive tool. It makes no sense to give it to the strongest race defensively (at least in early game).
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I hope this (possible) change reminds Zerg players Burrow is an awesome ability that is not used enough. It's waaaay underused imo. I'm always amazed Zergs can float 2000/2000 but not research Burrow for 100/100. Such a cool utility ability.
Ninja burrowed Infestors, saving Queens / Drones vs harassment (or at least forcing a Scan from Terran), microing Roaches (early on when it's still efficient), setting up Baneling land mines, burrowing Zerglings on expansion spots / strategic locations on the map. Let alone setting up the most epic ambushes of all time by burrowing an entire Zerg army and waiting for those poor Marines to walk into their doom. There is so much potential for cool stuff.
Please Zergs, use this more often!
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On January 16 2013 17:27 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 15:04 Toads wrote:On January 16 2013 14:39 ineversmile wrote:
Wouldn't it be better just to make burrow cheaper and/or reduce its research time, but keep it at Lair tech? The point is to make burrow a part of the game at an earlier time...it could still be Lair tech, but just take 60 seconds. Or 40 seconds. And it could be like WG research and just cost 50/50. It doesn't have to be so exaggeratedly-early, and at least if there's Lair tech required the opponent could scout the hatcheries, see one of them is (upgrading too/finished) lair, and then play around burrow.
I'm with MorroW on all his arguments--I think it's too random for the game. We don't need more coinflips in this game. The point of this buff is to give zerg an opportunity to be aggresive on hatch tech because right now it's not possible if you don't all in Oh you mean like all the various roach/bane pressure behind which you can take a third in TvZ (some are all-in, others aren't)? Or perhaps this the 9 minute roach/ling thing they have been doing in PvZ? Or doing a couple of rounds of injects of lings to snipe sentries when protoss takes a third? Zerg needed/needs options at Lair tech not Hatch tech,. Possibly options that don't constrict map design as horribly as Roach max does. Besides, as many people have pointed out, Burrow is actually a defensive tool. It makes no sense to give it to the strongest race defensively (at least in early game).
Hm, I gotta disagree with this. I think the question is not the techlevel, the question is whether it is available from two base economy (which may include a macro hatch or a third base, but not a high saturation level), hence, doesn't force you into macroing up defensively for 10mins.
The thing is, lair tech gives you a huge amount of options already:
1)
-) Roach speed
-) Roach burrow movement
-) Baneling speed
-) Hydralisks+Upgrades
-) Drops
-) Nydus
2)
-) Infestors
-) Mutalisks
-) Swarm Hosts
-) Burrow
But the options 1) are all "mass unit" options, which in the face of "drones or units"-larva mechanism seems undoable if you pair it with such tech investments.
The options at 2) are basically too expensive in gas to afford of two bases early. Basically, you can go 2base Infestor or Mutas but it still is going to take you 10mins to get up, because you need quite a bank of gas to get it going (additionally to the long tech times), so you are still only sitting around and wait for money/tech.
Swarm Hosts have been and still are my hope, that there might be ways to go something like 2base fast lair with 3(maybe even only 2gas) and put on a little bit of pressure. Also there might be something like this for speed hydras, like 5 Hydras (and an overseer if you need highground vision) tearing down a forge or a barracks.
Then there is burrow, a tool that is not really interesting for cheaper zerg units in medium and big engagements (so in the midgame), but really interesting when there are only very few troops on the battlefield (or in the lategame when you can do multipronged harass).
On a more general page, if you want early pressure to be viable for a race as explosive as zerg (so you can abuse each and any advantage your units have in a mass production attack), it cannot look like stalkers kiting marines (haha, I'm just gonna mass produce stalkers with larva), it cannot look like Dragoons (or tanks) outranging defenses like a bunker (haha, I have 5dragoons at the time you have two marines) and with the way air is designed in SC2 - extremly limited antiair - it cannot look like a banshee opening (haha, I have 3 banshees initially, defend this... lol).
It must look like a "mass unit at your strongest point rush" - allin -, so that the opponent gets a huge advantage from holding it as the other outcome would be a straight up loss, or it might look like an advantage that the units don't get from actually fighting - like roach regeneration, saving units through burrow, forcing techs etc.
Some stuff might be overpowered initially (like roach regeneration or blocking the natural), but I do believe that you could solve those problems with minor adjustments.
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OMG this sounds fucking awesome!Baneling mines,burrowed lings to trap opponents units!Chance to save queens,drones in trouble...
GG David Kim!
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looks promising....hope we can try this very soon
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Italy12246 Posts
Big J, of course "mass unit" strats should not work on 2bases (ie, using a build that gives you less production power). I don't understand your point.
Mine was, past the early game stage of various roach/baneling/whatever allins zerg can do (and there's plenty of those), their aggressive potential is either VERY limited for a long time (closer to 14 minutes than to 10) on maps where P can take an easy third, say Ohana (talking about only PvZ ofc), or outright unstoppable on maps with a harder third (i dare anyone to try and stop a roach max on Dual Sight, Abyssal City, Bel'Shir Vestige etc). If anything, Zerg "aggression" is too map dependent (again, at least in the PvZ matchup).
Zerg lair tech armies in the long run (ie, vs 3base economy) are really, really, really terrible, so because of map architecture and specific issues within a matchup (the reliance of P on forcefields to defend a third and the existance of stuff like roach max/roach drop) you end up in a situation where there's no opening to attack. Investing in Lair tech just delays the one tool Z has to win in the long term, and that is Hive.
Besides, Burrow is a much, much stronger tool defensively than it is offensively, so having it at hatch tech doesn't open up anything at all. Zerg is already arguably overpowered defensively (as in, there's hardly any viable builds in TvZ/PvZ that put on aggression consistently save for Immortal all-ins and maaaaaaybe an aggressive hellion/banshee), there's no need to further improve that.
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On January 16 2013 14:39 ineversmile wrote:
Wouldn't it be better just to make burrow cheaper and/or reduce its research time, but keep it at Lair tech? The point is to make burrow a part of the game at an earlier time...it could still be Lair tech, but just take 60 seconds. Or 40 seconds. And it could be like WG research and just cost 50/50. It doesn't have to be so exaggeratedly-early, and at least if there's Lair tech required the opponent could scout the hatcheries, see one of them is (upgrading too/finished) lair, and then play around burrow.
I agree with this idea. Burrow is such a cool ability, it would be great to see it become a bigger part of every standard build. Making it cheaper would accomplish a lot more than making it come earlier.
As a Zerg, there are many moments when I think "damn, I wish I had burrow"... but usually that happens because of something the opponent does (he moves out with marines, he harasses, etc), not something I do. There's no way of knowing whether burrow will be useful or not, meaning that it's not a good investment in the early/mid-game when 100 gas is a huge deal.
I think the best thing to do would be to make it cheaper. Like warpgate (an ability Blizzard wants to be a part of every game), it should cost 50/50.
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Ok, help me understand.
I think we can all agree that Burrow in super-early game is a big investment due to cost and inability to make queens. Right now it takes 100", let's even assume it's OP and it gets nerfed to 120 seconds.
Referring to MorroW and other's posts, what kind of early aggression can it really stop/prevent at hatch tech that wasn't possible before? I mean, Lair takes 80 seconds, so I guess that compared to someone who rushes burrow in WoL/current HOTS that is the only time window (maybe 20" shorter as I said, if it turns out to be OP) in which Zergs will have a new tool. And even then we have to account the investment - like, I spend 100gas for burrow but I have 4 less banelings. So, is there something really gamebreaking in that time window? Thanks.
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Well, you'd be paying for lair + burrow, that's more than just 4 less banelings. And if you scout a quicker lair with wonky gas timings/drone counts due to the fast tech, you'd be expecting some strange aggression and turtle up.
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On January 16 2013 21:42 musai wrote:
Well, you'd be paying for lair + burrow, that's more than just 4 less banelings. And if you scout a quicker lair with wonky gas timings/drone counts due to the fast tech, you'd be expecting some strange aggression and turtle up.
That is true but it's a different problem though, burrow research should have a clear animation so you can eventually scout and prepare accordingly.
Edit: about the 4 banes... I was referring to fast burrow at hatch tech as a defensive option. I'm not sure if a 100-120" research can be "reactive" in early game, but even then, 100gas means less banes/roaches so there is a bit of tradeoff.
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On January 16 2013 19:45 Teoita wrote:
Big J, of course "mass unit" strats should not work on 2bases (ie, using a build that gives you less production power). I don't understand your point.
Mine was, past the early game stage of various roach/baneling/whatever allins zerg can do (and there's plenty of those), their aggressive potential is either VERY limited for a long time (closer to 14 minutes than to 10) on maps where P can take an easy third, say Ohana (talking about only PvZ ofc), or outright unstoppable on maps with a harder third (i dare anyone to try and stop a roach max on Dual Sight, Abyssal City, Bel'Shir Vestige etc). If anything, Zerg "aggression" is too map dependent (again, at least in the PvZ matchup).
Zerg lair tech armies in the long run (ie, vs 3base economy) are really, really, really terrible, so because of map architecture and specific issues within a matchup (the reliance of P on forcefields to defend a third and the existance of stuff like roach max/roach drop) you end up in a situation where there's no opening to attack. Investing in Lair tech just delays the one tool Z has to win in the long term, and that is Hive.
Besides, Burrow is a much, much stronger tool defensively than it is offensively, so having it at hatch tech doesn't open up anything at all. Zerg is already arguably overpowered defensively (as in, there's hardly any viable builds in TvZ/PvZ that put on aggression consistently save for Immortal all-ins and maaaaaaybe an aggressive hellion/banshee), there's no need to further improve that.
Well, the core of my point is that the problem is not at which level the tech is, but that the techs are designed in ways that they don't work out to "equally cripply your opponent for the cost it took you to get them fast".
I completely agree with your points, minus early allins vs Protoss, as imo there really aren't any useful (and can't be any in WoL due to the scouting problem of Protoss). The crux however in my eyes is, that there is no "macro pressure" available for zerg. Sure on the maps where I can attack with 200/200 roach I can perform it. But that's not really the kind of thing I have in mind when I talk about "more aggressive options". I mean as a Protoss I think you can kind of agree how stupid it is when your only choices are some extreme allins or some extreme turtle play. (and for that reason Protoss got the MSC and the Oracle in HotS)
What I'm thinking about when I talk about early aggression is that kind of stalker contain on a Terran, opening with one or two banshees, doing a little bit of stargate pressure... all of that quite before 10mins.
Basically stuff that doesn't put you in the best position that you could be, yet prevents your opponent from being in the best position that he can be.
It looks very grim for such zerg options (outside of ZvZ), at least in my experience and from what I have seen in progames. I mean, I have tried such styles (a few roaches early on to pick of a few units/workers or a building from the wall) and they all failed miserably to put me in an equal position.
I surely don't want certain allins to become more powerful (roach/bling vs Terran), but in my opinion it could be nice to rush with 5 roaches+burrow and kill a little bit of stuff, force your opponent into a certain reaction and then not just lose them all because they are low health and cant shoot air, but instead regenerate them underground. I mean, EXACTLY this was the idea behind fast regenerating roaches in SC2.
For defensive purposes... maybe, maybe not. To be honest, in my opinion the fast burrow + fast speed is not really doable with 3bases, the mass queen is not doable if one of your hatches is producing burrow instead of queens.
From my "economical approximation" the most reasonable scenarios for me that include an early burrow would be:
2base with burrow and fast lair on only 2 *maybe* 3queens
3base with burrow and 3queens
And I believe in the second scenario you would much rather have ling speed and more queens.
To be honest, the only real concern I have with burrow on hatch (from a theoretical point of view) is that roach regeneration might be too high (5HP/sec right now) and that it could be too strong vs Protoss gateway first builds (no canon). Burrowed banelings... seems like way too expensive for me, as you base your defense on "I hope he walks over this".
On a last note, I believe that Vipers, speed Hydras and swarm hosts smooth out zerg midgame a lot. The reason why zerg aggression in the midgame isn't too good (at least in ZvP) is because your army strength doesn't transition well into the lategame. With those new options, (I hope) it does and therefore building Roach/Hydra at 10-12mins and using them doesn't seem bad anymore.
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Maybe now people will actually bother to burrow micro, the reason no one even bothered burrow microing roaches in battle was because by the time burrow is done roaches are expendable.
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On January 16 2013 04:39 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:16 MoonCricket wrote:On January 15 2013 23:00 Zelniq wrote:
I don't think you all realize that this change wouldn't affect hardly anything. Not because burrow isn't useful, there's just so many more important things to get.
In the early game, are you really going to spend your relatively low resources on Burrow rather than ling speed, +1 attack, or Lair? Or prioritize it over queens? Or drones, or units/buildings for defense, banenest/roach warren, units for an attack, expansions.. The thing about burrow people don't realize is that in most every case, you're not going to be getting it over these other things that are generally more vital and helpful. Yes you should eventually get it cus its useful, but how often is it going to be a core part of your opening, more important than those upgrades I mentioned?
You don't exactly have a ton of resources to just spend on whatever you like, especially as lair finishes you'll be needing resources for whichever lair tech, like roach speed, bane speed, spire, infestor pit, etc. I mean its not exactly like people prioritize burrow at lair right now over those other things. I'm saying all this as a response to all the people getting a little carried away with how suddenly detection will become suddenly so necessary early on and such nonsense It isn't about Burrow becoming a part of the standard 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds but the potential harassment and all ins it threatens from more aggressive build orders like 10 Spawning Pool or 11 Spawning Pool that can afford to take gas on either 14 or 18, build their first 2 Queens incrementally or build their first set of Zerglings faster. Even some of the 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds that stop at 2 Queens in order to apply pressure or a tier 1 all in can probably make use of Burrow to either sustain the attack or transition out of it. Sometimes the threat of something is more important than the presence and not everybody heads for a macro game with Zerg, more options are never a bad thing. i dont think burrow allin or harass is so strong that it makes people so afraid of it and as for burrow stopping 7/8 gate allins.. well you can already do that just by making units if you know it's coming too, and be so far ahead..i dont get what's the problem of having a strong defense vs an allin. it's not like people will always go burrow every game and that'll just suddenly make the allin terrible
But that is exactly the point! Zerg can already stop any kind of aggression that can be thrown at them by reacting correctly, so why do they even stronger defense against many all-ins? Shouldn't there be some skill required too when holding them? Especially with Burrowed Banelings versus Terran, the luck involved will be pretty ridiculous. If Terran scans and picks off a bunch of Banelings or doesn't walk over the Banelings they could straight up win. If Terran doesn't scan and walks over the Banes, they would simply lose.
In a lot of ways, this is like the MSC spell Photon Overcharge (or Purify or whatever it is called, they keep changing the name). Protoss could already stop the pushes it helps out against just fine, and those pushes required skill to stop. Now if you see a 2 rax (tech lab/reactor 2 rax expand) coming, you hit one button and your Nexus is perfectly safe. It is skilless and reduces the variety of the game. And as a Protoss player I hate it. I don't want to play a macro game, every game, with the same stupid unit combinations, and building the same defenses at the same drop locations every game... it gets dull really quick, especially when the 15-20 minute game is decided by one 10 second engagement where if either side makes one small micro mistake they lose.
I see the same thing happening here to a lesser extent with Burrow. This change further reduces the viability of many all-ins, and we both know the result isn't that they will be easier to hold, the result if that people won't do said all-ins anymore, and the variety of viable builds has just been reduced. As you said, Zerg can already hold the 7 Gate, so why does it need to be strengthened against it? Less variety is bad and leads to boredom.
Unless there is some all-in or pressure timing that is crippling Zerg here that I don't know about (and based on recent tournament results, Zerg is flourishing), I don't see why this change needs to happen.
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On January 16 2013 17:27 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 15:04 Toads wrote:On January 16 2013 14:39 ineversmile wrote:
Wouldn't it be better just to make burrow cheaper and/or reduce its research time, but keep it at Lair tech? The point is to make burrow a part of the game at an earlier time...it could still be Lair tech, but just take 60 seconds. Or 40 seconds. And it could be like WG research and just cost 50/50. It doesn't have to be so exaggeratedly-early, and at least if there's Lair tech required the opponent could scout the hatcheries, see one of them is (upgrading too/finished) lair, and then play around burrow.
I'm with MorroW on all his arguments--I think it's too random for the game. We don't need more coinflips in this game. The point of this buff is to give zerg an opportunity to be aggresive on hatch tech because right now it's not possible if you don't all in Besides, as many people have pointed out, Burrow is actually a defensive tool. It makes no sense to give it to the strongest race defensively (at least in early game).
It's not at all, at least not on hatch tech, you dont throw 100/100 cash + 100sec that could be 2 queens just for défensive purpose, or you do it reactionary, like when scouting a 6gate, and you should be at lair tech when a 6gate hit anyway.
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On January 17 2013 00:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
But that is exactly the point! Zerg can already stop any kind of aggression that can be thrown at them by reacting correctly, so why do they even stronger defense against many all-ins? Shouldn't there be some skill required too when holding them? Especially with Burrowed Banelings versus Terran, the luck involved will be pretty ridiculous. If Terran scans and picks off a bunch of Banelings or doesn't walk over the Banelings they could straight up win. If Terran doesn't scan and walks over the Banes, they would simply lose.
I agree with your point about the increased randomness. But then we also have to mention how Widow Mines are way worse in that regard since they even auto-fire and are not self-destructing.
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On January 17 2013 00:48 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:39 Zelniq wrote:On January 16 2013 04:16 MoonCricket wrote:On January 15 2013 23:00 Zelniq wrote:
I don't think you all realize that this change wouldn't affect hardly anything. Not because burrow isn't useful, there's just so many more important things to get.
In the early game, are you really going to spend your relatively low resources on Burrow rather than ling speed, +1 attack, or Lair? Or prioritize it over queens? Or drones, or units/buildings for defense, banenest/roach warren, units for an attack, expansions.. The thing about burrow people don't realize is that in most every case, you're not going to be getting it over these other things that are generally more vital and helpful. Yes you should eventually get it cus its useful, but how often is it going to be a core part of your opening, more important than those upgrades I mentioned?
You don't exactly have a ton of resources to just spend on whatever you like, especially as lair finishes you'll be needing resources for whichever lair tech, like roach speed, bane speed, spire, infestor pit, etc. I mean its not exactly like people prioritize burrow at lair right now over those other things. I'm saying all this as a response to all the people getting a little carried away with how suddenly detection will become suddenly so necessary early on and such nonsense It isn't about Burrow becoming a part of the standard 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds but the potential harassment and all ins it threatens from more aggressive build orders like 10 Spawning Pool or 11 Spawning Pool that can afford to take gas on either 14 or 18, build their first 2 Queens incrementally or build their first set of Zerglings faster. Even some of the 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds that stop at 2 Queens in order to apply pressure or a tier 1 all in can probably make use of Burrow to either sustain the attack or transition out of it. Sometimes the threat of something is more important than the presence and not everybody heads for a macro game with Zerg, more options are never a bad thing. i dont think burrow allin or harass is so strong that it makes people so afraid of it and as for burrow stopping 7/8 gate allins.. well you can already do that just by making units if you know it's coming too, and be so far ahead..i dont get what's the problem of having a strong defense vs an allin. it's not like people will always go burrow every game and that'll just suddenly make the allin terrible But that is exactly the point! Zerg can already stop any kind of aggression that can be thrown at them by reacting correctly, so why do they even stronger defense against many all-ins? Shouldn't there be some skill required too when holding them? Especially with Burrowed Banelings versus Terran, the luck involved will be pretty ridiculous. If Terran scans and picks off a bunch of Banelings or doesn't walk over the Banelings they could straight up win. If Terran doesn't scan and walks over the Banes, they would simply lose. In a lot of ways, this is like the MSC spell Photon Overcharge (or Purify or whatever it is called, they keep changing the name). Protoss could already stop the pushes it helps out against just fine, and those pushes required skill to stop. Now if you see a 2 rax (tech lab/reactor 2 rax expand) coming, you hit one button and your Nexus is perfectly safe. It is skilless and reduces the variety of the game. And as a Protoss player I hate it. I don't want to play a macro game, every game, with the same stupid unit combinations, and building the same defenses at the same drop locations every game... it gets dull really quick, especially when the 15-20 minute game is decided by one 10 second engagement where if either side makes one small micro mistake they lose. I see the same thing happening here to a lesser extent with Burrow. This change further reduces the viability of many all-ins, and we both know the result isn't that they will be easier to hold, the result if that people won't do said all-ins anymore, and the variety of viable builds has just been reduced. As you said, Zerg can already hold the 7 Gate, so why does it need to be strengthened against it? Less variety is bad and leads to boredom. Unless there is some all-in or pressure timing that is crippling Zerg here that I don't know about (and based on recent tournament results, Zerg is flourishing), I don't see why this change needs to happen.
First of all, it should be far easier to stop toss all ins when they get completely scouted. The immo sentry all in is the best example of this, as even pros know it's coming for sure and still lose even though they make the right units with very good macro. When all ins get scouted the defender should always have a big advantage, meaning all ins from toss should be far riskier than they are now.
Simple pressure builds are way underused by toss, as is harass builds, simply because toss all ins are far too strong. You talk about macro games as if they all go the same way, which I guess they do most of the time because players in general are too slow to pull off 2+ location harass builds. I still remember Grubby using 2 warp prisms and a pylon to hit 3 locations at once for 5 minutes while taking a fourth and building a main army behind it. So if macro games are getting dull for you it's because you and the people you're playing aren't creative enough with your builds or are simply too slow to execute more creative play. And btw I'm not saying I do play fast enough to do those things either, but added variety will come with player development, and really good all ins are bad for the game.
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I think this is fine, but if you want fast moving roaches or fast banes, you'll still be encouraged to tech to lair. But I like the idea of having a unit capable of early "cloak" for zerg, and this is fine I believe due to the increased early detection all the races have now (except terran, which always had the fastest early detect with the scan), what with spore colonies after pool w/o evo and moship core envision ability. And, it's not like the early burrowed units can attack while "cloaked", as the only zerg unit cpable of this is the infestor, which shouldn't be too much affected by this.
However, this is nice that we can even out the research, such that burrow is available right as the lair is done, or even before, rather than having to decide once the lair is done in which of the infinite ways to begin spending that new strange resource we never really used b4 lair, "gas"... lol
Also, this will be fun to use to potentially burrow a ling to prevent 6min natural expands. And burrow roaches will be able to hit super fast, limited only really by the research time they give it. maybe make it as long as the terran stim? IDk, testing must ensue to find the fairest research time. But I like this, the game will have more complexity of options now, and tournaments will be all the richer because of it. And let's be honest, early game zerg is quite boring, so why not jazz it up a bit? :D
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The direction that Blizzard has been moving forward towards in giving all the races, as many tech upgrades, either free or not, in the early game. I don't like this. They are basically stripping down their hierarchy oh what and RTS game is. They are basically saying, "here is everything right away, go wild!" While that IS a way to design a game, its not what SC is.
End of the day, they will do what they want and see fit. Either we (the community) adapt or stop playing the game.
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EPT
