EPTBurrow at tier 1 - officially! - Page 12
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JackReacher
United States197 Posts
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:24 Derez wrote: This just further discourages harassment and unit pressure like all of HotS. Not sure where you are coming from with this. I play zerg and I have a beta key, so I've played HotS since december and my experience is 180 degrees the opposite. I get harassed the shit out of me, and I feel forced to build more units than in WoL just to get an economy up and not fall way behind. I have even flat out died to crippling harass damage before lair several times. If terran is aggressive it is actually hard to "just macro" for me. Reapers and mines are very good, the options for terran pressures are improved. So much, that in combination with improved terran and protoss defensive capabilities I feel more limited as zerg, because WoL pressure is easier to handle for these races. I don't pretend to know all the potential issues with hatch burrow, but no need for terrans to go over board on this just yet I feel. It's not even in the beta yet. | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:33 LoveTool wrote: Not sure where you are coming from with this. I play zerg and I have a beta key, so I've played HotS since december and my experience is 180 degrees the opposite. I get harassed the shit out of me, and I feel forced to build more units than in WoL just to get an economy up and not fall way behind. I have even flat out died to crippling harass damage before lair several times. If terran is agressive it is actually hard to "just macro" for me. Reapers and mines are very good, the options for pressures are improved. No need for terrans to go over board on this one. Pretty much this... If its not a 8-10hellions running through my base trying to roast everything, it's widow mine drops, or some other form of harassment. Zerg has no early game options other than to turtle and try to defend against other races harassment. At least with this change there is SOMETHING Zerg can do to deter harassment and even punish greedy players. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:00 convention wrote: The point he was trying to make, and still stands, is that you cannot "scout" for where burrowed banes are. You walk over them, you lose the game, and that's it. You can scout for hellions, you can scout for bunker rushes, you can prevent hellions from getting into your base and behind your mineral line unimpeded. There is fear he could be doing a strategy and you aren't scouting for it, then there is the fear that at any point you could lose the game without being able to know beforehand. The second one scares me. If I know that a bunker rush will kill me, then I know I chose a greedy build so I am prepared for the consequences. I don't choose to apply pressure to the zerg, I have to. And if he has burrow, and there is no way I can know where the burrowed banes are, then I could instantly lose all of my marines and the game. That's scary that I could lose the game at any point without having the ability to prevent it. simple, spread your marines as you walk across the map? O.o Or just open up hellions after an expansion and you'd see if he has burrowed banes around the map. I think the change is awesome but its def a big zerg buff and not sure if they need it or not currently. But it adds a lot of cool early game things that would spice up hots early game for zerg as there were no previous changes lower tech than hydra/swarmhost/infestor/muta when terran have widow mines and protoss have mothership core. One of the things im looking forward to is a roach pressure build with burrow that forces terran to lift his CC. The burrow to delay landing the CC again or to do additional roach micro. Burrow being a good investment early on to put a ling at each sequential expansion your opponent takes. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On January 16 2013 07:02 Sbrubbles wrote: So, it seems the swarm is evolving! Or in this case, devolving back into BW! Evolving INTO BW. ;D I don't know, I really like burrow at tier 1, but I have a feeling that what Morrow said is the truth, it will be very good against every kind of all-in or pressure, and maybe too good. It just makes Zerg even more defensive in the early game which shouldn't be the case. | ||
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nemonic
132 Posts
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
Because if it is i'm okay with that. Terran can protect early with tanks and zerg with burrow bane,everything is fine. | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 16 2013 08:28 TheLunatic wrote: Give detection back to msc if this is gonna happen Why? Just push with stargate tech or robo tech. Isn't that what happens anyway? Also it's not as if burrowed banelings even do anything to protoss units anyway. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On January 15 2013 07:25 Stingart wrote: Fencar made a good comment: Burrow is extremely useful in TvZ, and at least moderately useful in ZvZ. Zerg can burrow Banelings in pathways to either waste scans for the Terran army or to kill tons of Marines, they can burrow Zerglings at expansions to force scans before landing CC's, can burrow Drones to save them from Marine drops and run-by's, can burrow Infestors to harass with Infested Terrans, and you can burrow Zerglings in the Terran's base during a run-by to harass even more later, etc. I honestly don't think that Burrow needs to be at hatchery tech. Burrow your drones so no harass can kill them. Nice buff for Zerg i'd say. yes because while you camp your marines over the burrowed drones the zerg is clearly getting far far ahead. | ||
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People_0f_Color
177 Posts
Afterall, by that point of the game, terran can scan to see if zerg is going for burrow tech and toss's just got the hallucination abillity. I think they should try it and find a way to weave it in before yelling "imba". It would make a VERY stale early game for zergs into something far more interesting in the expansion. | ||
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JShark
Korea (South)15 Posts
On January 15 2013 07:50 Existor wrote: As Zerg I think, that Protoss is okay against this. Both their teching paths will have detection (Observer or Oracle), but what about Terran? He will need to waste scans around the map to see burrowed units, and it's very expensive and shut downs any agression from Terran against Zerg, because he can lose marines against 2-3 banelings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Main idea What about giving Reapers mini-version of Sensor Array? Lets name it "Battlefield Awareness", like previous cliff-vision for Reapers. It will spot cloaked and burrowed units with red spots near Reaper, but not detect! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Explanation how it works Reaper will recieve a small mobile version of Sensor Array tower. Reaperwill be able to spot with red dots (like Sensor Array tower spotting units in Fog of War) burrowed and cloaked units. It will not detect, just spot with red dots, like Sensor Tower! Terran players will be able to choose: - Hm, don't walk here!! Too many red dots, dangerous zone! It may be banelings or zergling/baneling trap! - I should scan here, looks like I can kill it if I will scan at this place. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Numbers Mobile mini-sensor radius can be 5-6 or 10-11 around Reaper. So you will be able to see something burrowed or cloaked at that distance. It can be coldown based activable ability, when press ability button and Reaaper recieves temporary sensor, or just passive ability with smaller range -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TL;DR Reapers will recieve passive or coldownbased activable (for short time) ability "Mobile Sensor" which grants ability to see burrowed or cloaked units without detecting them. I actually really like this idea!  )) | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
I think burrow at hatch tech can easily be compensated for other things. Like buffing missile turret cost from 100 down to 75 for terran and buffing cannon detection range for protoss. Lots of things could be changed, but I think it's for the better honestly, the more early game options for zerg the better, I'm sick of having to 3H toss every single game. | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
On January 16 2013 08:28 TheLunatic wrote: Give detection back to msc if this is gonna happen May aswell forget about the T1 burrow idea if it's to make it completely useless. The WoL zerg design of "Expand or die" should have an end. Right now there is no viable aggressive option against FFE. At best this change may end the FFE NR20 era, at worst the protoss will scout the lack of 3rd and put up 1 or 2 more canons. Meanwhile burrow still take 1min40 and 100/100 to complete, which is a lot. So it could also do absolutely nothing. | ||
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TheAppetizer
United States146 Posts
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
I'm with MorroW on all his arguments--I think it's too random for the game. We don't need more coinflips in this game. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On January 16 2013 14:39 ineversmile wrote: Wouldn't it be better just to make burrow cheaper and/or reduce its research time, but keep it at Lair tech? The point is to make burrow a part of the game at an earlier time...it could still be Lair tech, but just take 60 seconds. Or 40 seconds. And it could be like WG research and just cost 50/50. It doesn't have to be so exaggeratedly-early, and at least if there's Lair tech required the opponent could scout the hatcheries, see one of them is (upgrading too/finished) lair, and then play around burrow. I'm with MorroW on all his arguments--I think it's too random for the game. We don't need more coinflips in this game. The point of this buff is to give zerg an opportunity to be aggresive on hatch tech because right now it's not possible if you don't all in | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
On January 16 2013 14:32 TheAppetizer wrote: This would brew great for early game defense with banelings and offence with roaches. Zvz will become very interesting with ling traps and burrowed Roach timing attacks. For ZvZ, mutas is the key. Spending gas on roaches and burrow delays mutas by a lot. The only way i see this is possible is if you do a timing all in with burrowed roaches before lair tech. | ||
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