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On January 15 2013 23:44 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 23:30 BigRedDog wrote:On January 15 2013 19:16 InVerno wrote:
nothing to do with normal mobile detection like raven and overseers.
And with this burrow change, gate expand is pretty dead like everything not involving a robo. I don't see how burrow change has a huge disadvantage for Zerg to prevent toss from taking their third. Toss usually take their third usually pass 9 min mark, that's already pass the early game stage. By then, toss has obs out already. It is a waste of 100 gas to spend on burrow just so a Zerg can burrow a zergling to deny a third. It would be funny though to put a pair of banelings at the possible expansions of a Protoss and as the probes are transfering. Boom :D
You can do this quite well vs any race currently :p Just try getting burrow soon after your lair, and you should be able to get under their inc 3rd base nicely unless they rush a 3rd early.
I've had some really nice results killing 20+ workers in one boom when they're transferred in the line, and they stack up on that one mineral patch just before they find other patches.
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On January 16 2013 01:47 mec wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 23:48 PanzerElite wrote:On January 15 2013 21:29 mec wrote:On January 15 2013 19:44 VieuxSinge wrote:On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway  . One scan is 270 mineral (5 drones) and you will probably lose your hellions (800 minerals, 16 drones). Great idea! really... I just love this math! At first you say that you lose 270 minirals when you scan (how do you actually lose something you never had?) and then you compare 8 hellions with 16 drones. Not taking into account what you just said, lost mining time on those drones from that point and forward. Well I really LOVE your argument implying, well JUST SCAN AWAY who needs mule's??11 You won't lose any minerals LOL. I guess you've NEVER EVER played terran because you REALLY need mules to keep up in economy vs the other races. Zerg can just build a huge amount of workers in a short time. Protos can speed up worker production. Terran NEEDS mules mining in the early-game you can't just scan here and there and hey also over here. And they still don't get it? Amazing.
Don't pretend we don't get it.
To put it in words correctly. You scan = lower income, minerals can still be mined later. BUT thinking you can just scan away is false. You could have had 270 minerals more which is very important to keep up in economy.
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On January 16 2013 02:12 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 01:47 mec wrote:On January 15 2013 23:48 PanzerElite wrote:On January 15 2013 21:29 mec wrote:On January 15 2013 19:44 VieuxSinge wrote:On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . One scan is 270 mineral (5 drones) and you will probably lose your hellions (800 minerals, 16 drones). Great idea! really... I just love this math! At first you say that you lose 270 minirals when you scan (how do you actually lose something you never had?) and then you compare 8 hellions with 16 drones. Not taking into account what you just said, lost mining time on those drones from that point and forward. Well I really LOVE your argument implying, well JUST SCAN AWAY who needs mule's??11 You won't lose any minerals LOL. I guess you've NEVER EVER played terran because you REALLY need mules to keep up in economy vs the other races. Zerg can just build a huge amount of workers in a short time. Protos can speed up worker production. Terran NEEDS mules mining in the early-game you can't just scan here and there and hey also over here. And they still don't get it? Amazing. Don't pretend we don't get it. To put it in words correctly. You scan = lower income, minerals can still be mined later. BUT thinking you can just scan away is false. You could have had 270 minerals more which is very important to keep up in economy.
But your opponent will also have less economy to begin with, as he invested into burrow so your mules are not needed to keep up.
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On January 16 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:12 PanzerElite wrote:On January 16 2013 01:47 mec wrote:On January 15 2013 23:48 PanzerElite wrote:On January 15 2013 21:29 mec wrote:On January 15 2013 19:44 VieuxSinge wrote:On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . One scan is 270 mineral (5 drones) and you will probably lose your hellions (800 minerals, 16 drones). Great idea! really... I just love this math! At first you say that you lose 270 minirals when you scan (how do you actually lose something you never had?) and then you compare 8 hellions with 16 drones. Not taking into account what you just said, lost mining time on those drones from that point and forward. Well I really LOVE your argument implying, well JUST SCAN AWAY who needs mule's??11 You won't lose any minerals LOL. I guess you've NEVER EVER played terran because you REALLY need mules to keep up in economy vs the other races. Zerg can just build a huge amount of workers in a short time. Protos can speed up worker production. Terran NEEDS mules mining in the early-game you can't just scan here and there and hey also over here. And they still don't get it? Amazing. Don't pretend we don't get it. To put it in words correctly. You scan = lower income, minerals can still be mined later. BUT thinking you can just scan away is false. You could have had 270 minerals more which is very important to keep up in economy. But your opponent will also have less economy to begin with, as he invested into burrow so your mules are not needed to keep up.
Idk what planet you are from, but zergs always have more units than me in the early Midgame, I don't drop mules more tha. 2 or 3 energy late, keep my mins under 100 until 10 min +. Big j, I wanted to say this because it's not reasonable to suggest Terran scanning ahead for everything. I play Zerg as well and I spread creep very aggressively. If Terran scans multiple times in a row to clear creep, i feel like money. Midgame it's very easy to be efficient with Muta so scanning pretty much puts you behind unless you're 4+ orbital and got all ur buildings up.
Terrains cut workers in Every matchup so they can add raxes and additional ccs quicker. They rely on mules while they do this, so while I agree with this change I think the raven cost must be altered or something, because it's going to seem unreasonable that Terran would be expected to scan everywhere..
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This won't change anything at all, burrow is not interesting to get early on anyway. You can potentially use it to avoid harassment earlier or try to delay a third expansion but that stuff doesn't come up before lair timings anyway.
What will zerg do agressively with this? Early burrowed banelings? Burrowed roaches without movement?
This is a token change that will hardly have any effect..
David kim deserved to be fired, the entire development of HotS is a joke. They introduce all kinds of units/abilities that stop harass like widow mines, early siege upgrade and the MsC and then they start buffing aggresive options.. They are continuously patching terrible changes by introducing other crappy changes..
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this sounds extremely broken and wrong
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On January 16 2013 02:41 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:On January 16 2013 02:12 PanzerElite wrote:On January 16 2013 01:47 mec wrote:On January 15 2013 23:48 PanzerElite wrote:On January 15 2013 21:29 mec wrote:On January 15 2013 19:44 VieuxSinge wrote:On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote:Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway . One scan is 270 mineral (5 drones) and you will probably lose your hellions (800 minerals, 16 drones). Great idea! really... I just love this math! At first you say that you lose 270 minirals when you scan (how do you actually lose something you never had?) and then you compare 8 hellions with 16 drones. Not taking into account what you just said, lost mining time on those drones from that point and forward. Well I really LOVE your argument implying, well JUST SCAN AWAY who needs mule's??11 You won't lose any minerals LOL. I guess you've NEVER EVER played terran because you REALLY need mules to keep up in economy vs the other races. Zerg can just build a huge amount of workers in a short time. Protos can speed up worker production. Terran NEEDS mules mining in the early-game you can't just scan here and there and hey also over here. And they still don't get it? Amazing. Don't pretend we don't get it. To put it in words correctly. You scan = lower income, minerals can still be mined later. BUT thinking you can just scan away is false. You could have had 270 minerals more which is very important to keep up in economy. But your opponent will also have less economy to begin with, as he invested into burrow so your mules are not needed to keep up. Idk what planet you are from, but zergs always have more units than me in the early Midgame, I don't drop mules more tha. 2 or 3 energy late, keep my mins under 100 until 10 min +. Big j, I wanted to say this because it's not reasonable to suggest Terran scanning ahead for everything. I play Zerg as well and I spread creep very aggressively. If Terran scans multiple times in a row to clear creep, i feel like money. Midgame it's very easy to be efficient with Muta so scanning pretty much puts you behind unless you're 4+ orbital and got all ur buildings up. Terrains cut workers in Every matchup so they can add raxes and additional ccs quicker. They rely on mules while they do this, so while I agree with this change I think the raven cost must be altered or something, because it's going to seem unreasonable that Terran would be expected to scan everywhere..
The discussion was not about burrowed banelings but about hellions that try to roast drones and might need an extra scan now to do so.
Burrowed banelings and roaches are on a different page. Those things are questions that only testing can answer, not whether it "is possible to have 1scan when you runby with hellions".
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On January 16 2013 02:48 MorroW wrote:
this sounds extremely broken and wrong
Fair game if you tell me.
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On January 16 2013 02:48 MorroW wrote:
this sounds extremely broken and wrong
Thanks Morrow. I always love when good player express their opinion founded on good arguments.
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Interesting change. Early game, you can burrow lings for map vision and delaying expansions, regen roaches for some healing, a bit easier to save drones from harass. You would have to delay additional queens, third, lair or units to get it at hatch tech. Not what I would call a buff, but should open up some variety.
Perhaps it will also make burrow movement a more viable research too, a rarely used upgrade. Start Burrow and Lair at the same time, then tunneling claws immediately as lair is done.
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Maybe it'll make roach pushes more viable early on? I don't know, the time spent researching burrow and spending all that gas on roaches would delay my lair way more than I'd like, but maybe other people have playstyles that would benefit from this
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On January 16 2013 02:58 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:48 MorroW wrote:
this sounds extremely broken and wrong Fair game if you tell me.
it just seems kind of broken to go roach rush and be able to heal your roaches during it. how would you kill them anyway?
thats just 1 example but i think theres alot of ideas that pop up.
and not to mention the constant paranoia walking on the map knowing there could be a huge trap anywhere at any given time. the way it is now youll know when burrow could be done, but you probably already have somewhat of map control to eliminate most of the position where baneling mines could be.
now its like, you move out with hellions and lings unburrow on top of them and kill them. or you make a bio pressure and 2 banelings alone could theoretically kill it all.
it just suddenly feels like a very hit and miss game if you wanna move out on the map for any kind of pressure
its maybe not the burrow use itself that would be broken, its the fear of it being used and not knowing if it is
kind of all from my own perspective what i said so far. but thinking as a protoss for a moment here, wouldnt having burrow in time for any single gateway pressure be kind of broken?
all lovely 8 minute timings with 3-4 gate pressure, or massive gateway allins all seem so incredibly weak to do. and without those threats being very relevant, it allows for a lot more drones helping them later on
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On January 16 2013 03:01 LoveTool wrote:
Perhaps it will also make burrow movement a more viable research too, a rarely used upgrade. Start Burrow and Lair at the same time, then tunneling claws immediately as lair is done.
This is more along the lines of what I'm thinking of trying to make work if this goes live. I was thinking of a build based around 2 hatch aggression, using the t1 burrow upgrade at the same time (or depending if they change research time, slightly before) lair upgrade, at which point you could put a bit more focus on strong aggression rather then having to immediately take a 3rd and macro up.
On January 16 2013 03:06 MorroW wrote:
and not to mention the constant paranoia walking on the map knowing there could be a huge trap anywhere at any given time. the way it is now youll know when burrow could be done, but you probably already have somewhat of map control to eliminate most of the position where baneling mines could be.
now its like, you move out with hellions and lings unburrow on top of them and kill them. or you make a bio pressure and 2 banelings alone could theoretically kill it all.
it just suddenly feels like a very hit and miss game if you wanna move out on the map for any kind of pressure
its maybe not the burrow use itself that would be broken, its the fear of it being used and not knowing if it is
That fear sounds pretty familiar as a Zerg player in ZvT right now if you leave the base without detection.
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I'm very skeptical of this change. I think it has so much abuse potential, ranging from roach rushes to simple burrowed lings denying expansions.
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On January 16 2013 03:13 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 03:01 LoveTool wrote:
Perhaps it will also make burrow movement a more viable research too, a rarely used upgrade. Start Burrow and Lair at the same time, then tunneling claws immediately as lair is done. This is more along the lines of what I'm thinking of trying to make work if this goes live. I was thinking of a build based around 2 hatch aggression, using the t1 burrow upgrade at the same time (or depending if they change research time, slightly before) lair upgrade, at which point you could put a bit more focus on strong aggression rather then having to immediately take a 3rd and macro up. Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 03:06 MorroW wrote:
and not to mention the constant paranoia walking on the map knowing there could be a huge trap anywhere at any given time. the way it is now youll know when burrow could be done, but you probably already have somewhat of map control to eliminate most of the position where baneling mines could be.
now its like, you move out with hellions and lings unburrow on top of them and kill them. or you make a bio pressure and 2 banelings alone could theoretically kill it all.
it just suddenly feels like a very hit and miss game if you wanna move out on the map for any kind of pressure
its maybe not the burrow use itself that would be broken, its the fear of it being used and not knowing if it is
That fear sounds pretty familiar as a Zerg player in ZvT right now if you leave the base without detection.
yes i wanted to talk about that too
if a dark templar turns out to be on the map, it shops up 1 marine and then your aware and can avoid more units dying, if its a widow mine - if the unit is strong enough it will survive the blow. if your sending out many units - like a pack of lings you use 1 in front as a mine sweeper. if your quick enough you can even walk out of the widow mine range before it hits.
so heres the difference, you walk with a pack of marines and there are baneling mines - everything dies instantly without a warning.
one might argue you could spread out your marines as your walking across the map, but keep in mind if your scared of burrow you should be scared of zergling speed too.
zerglings can come any time while your walking and if your spread out they will surround and rape you so hard where as if your in a clump hugging edges (what 4rax pressure normally is) while walking on the map you will trade cost efficiently.
i can even see packs of hellions being raped by zergling burrow traps. we all know how many times hellions got surrounded by speedlings because the terran wasnt looking at that exact moment and how casters would say "the game was already almost over". well now zerg could do that constantly without the terran needing to fuck up for it to happen.
the problem with moving such a tech earlier in the game is because burrow or the fear of burrow relies heavily on where it could be burrowed on the map. if burrow is not possible in early game, the hellions come out grab map control and keep it that way, burrow will not be feared later on in the game as long as the hellions kept the vision on the map.
but if burrow is out before the hellions are. there is no way of really knowing or having a clue if your hellions are in danger of a full surround or if your later push with bio tank will get slaughtered by 2 banelings thats been waiting at a spot for 5 minutes for units to come.
this ofcourse wont happen every single game, and terrans will move in weird angles with their units to avoid probable traps. but the fear of it is still there and theres always a risk that you end up losing everything
a change like this worries me less about balance and much more about the randomness that could happen
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well i would play raven then everygame.
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On January 16 2013 03:06 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 02:58 Uni1987 wrote:On January 16 2013 02:48 MorroW wrote:
this sounds extremely broken and wrong Fair game if you tell me. it just seems kind of broken to go roach rush and be able to heal your roaches during it. how would you kill them anyway? thats just 1 example but i think theres alot of ideas that pop up. and not to mention the constant paranoia walking on the map knowing there could be a huge trap anywhere at any given time. the way it is now youll know when burrow could be done, but you probably already have somewhat of map control to eliminate most of the position where baneling mines could be. now its like, you move out with hellions and lings unburrow on top of them and kill them. or you make a bio pressure and 2 banelings alone could theoretically kill it all. it just suddenly feels like a very hit and miss game if you wanna move out on the map for any kind of pressure its maybe not the burrow use itself that would be broken, its the fear of it being used and not knowing if it is kind of all from my own perspective what i said so far. but thinking as a protoss for a moment here, wouldnt having burrow in time for any single gateway pressure be kind of broken? all lovely 8 minute timings with 3-4 gate pressure, or massive gateway allins all seem so incredibly weak to do. and without those threats being very relevant, it allows for a lot more drones helping them later on
It puts you in a more awkward position i agree, but it is exactly the situation zerg is in ZvT. We have a fear all the time of, bunker rushes, widow mines, or hellions. I added hellions to that list because I think it's just retarted how there is literally slim to none skill involved, wiping out the zerg eco. It can be handled, but definatly sticks under the category of that "fear" you speak of. And really, how potent will it be? Terrans tend to get an ebay up quite early nowadays..
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Some current facts
Burrow
100 minerals
100 gas
100 seconds research time
Burrowing allows Zerg ground units to hide underneath the surface. While burrowed, units can only be targeted while in the presence of an enemy Detector or while affected by Fungal Growth. Most units cannot move while burrowed but Infestors and Roaches, upon which they do not recieve the speed bonus for being on creep. While burrowed, units do not contact other non-burrowed units aside buildings, although they do contact other burrowed units in Starcraft II. Most units have their sight reduced by 4 while burrowed. The exceptions to this are the Infestors and Banelings, which do not suffer from reduced vision when burrowed, and Infested Terrans, which have their sight reduced by 5. Burrowing requires a brief period to complete, which varies between different units.
Similar to cloaked units, burrowed units can be spotted by keen players who notice a shadow-like cloud on terrain.
Burrow is a research that enables this for almost all Zerg ground units researched from any Zerg townhall once a Lair is complete. Larvae, Eggs, Cocoons, Broodlings, Nydus Worms and Changelings are the only units that cannot learn to burrow.
Roaches can research a seperate burrowing capability with movement and regeneration while burrowed from the Roach Warren. This does not require other tech.
Note: Tunneling claws requires lair and increases the rate at which Roaches regenerate Hit Points while burrowed from the 5 HP/sec provided by Rapid Regeneration to 10 HP/sec.
reference Liquipedia, read more there
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Burrow
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On January 16 2013 03:40 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 03:06 MorroW wrote:On January 16 2013 02:58 Uni1987 wrote:On January 16 2013 02:48 MorroW wrote:
this sounds extremely broken and wrong Fair game if you tell me. it just seems kind of broken to go roach rush and be able to heal your roaches during it. how would you kill them anyway? thats just 1 example but i think theres alot of ideas that pop up. and not to mention the constant paranoia walking on the map knowing there could be a huge trap anywhere at any given time. the way it is now youll know when burrow could be done, but you probably already have somewhat of map control to eliminate most of the position where baneling mines could be. now its like, you move out with hellions and lings unburrow on top of them and kill them. or you make a bio pressure and 2 banelings alone could theoretically kill it all. it just suddenly feels like a very hit and miss game if you wanna move out on the map for any kind of pressure its maybe not the burrow use itself that would be broken, its the fear of it being used and not knowing if it is kind of all from my own perspective what i said so far. but thinking as a protoss for a moment here, wouldnt having burrow in time for any single gateway pressure be kind of broken? all lovely 8 minute timings with 3-4 gate pressure, or massive gateway allins all seem so incredibly weak to do. and without those threats being very relevant, it allows for a lot more drones helping them later on It puts you in a more awkward position i agree, but it is exactly the situation zerg is in ZvT. We have a fear all the time of, bunker rushes, widow mines, or hellions. I added hellions to that list because I think it's just retarted how there is literally slim to none skill involved, wiping out the zerg eco. It can be handled, but definatly sticks under the category of that "fear" you speak of. And really, how potent will it be? Terrans tend to get an ebay up quite early nowadays..
i meant youd be burrowing your banelings and zerglings outside of terran territory, not where they would build turrets, unless your implying terrans could turret push across the map - its too expensive and takes too long time.
the fear of bunker rush is not at all the same thing. the possibility of baneling mines would be impossible to track if they invested in it where they have it and how much.
bunker rushes are scouted with a drone in early game and responded to.
hellion runbys are countered every game by having decent sim city and some queens.
responding to burrow mine is something that is not possible, you cant scout it and you cant scan your way across the map or leap frogging with turrets for these timing attacks. the only logical conclusion is to say terran shouldnt be doing these timings with 4rax or hellion harass etc because the risk is too great and if that is what the result would be it would just cause the same effect as in pvz. terran/toss wouldnt do funny timings against zergs 3rd and zergs would slowly but surely adapt and start droning more than they already are.
not that it matters but, blizzard saying "burrow t1 to allow for more aggressive play" is not what it would be, burrow at t1 would result in the other races being less aggressive towards the zerg
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On January 15 2013 23:00 Zelniq wrote:
I don't think you all realize that this change wouldn't affect hardly anything. Not because burrow isn't useful, there's just so many more important things to get.
In the early game, are you really going to spend your relatively low resources on Burrow rather than ling speed, +1 attack, or Lair? Or prioritize it over queens? Or drones, or units/buildings for defense, banenest/roach warren, units for an attack, expansions.. The thing about burrow people don't realize is that in most every case, you're not going to be getting it over these other things that are generally more vital and helpful. Yes you should eventually get it cus its useful, but how often is it going to be a core part of your opening, more important than those upgrades I mentioned?
You don't exactly have a ton of resources to just spend on whatever you like, especially as lair finishes you'll be needing resources for whichever lair tech, like roach speed, bane speed, spire, infestor pit, etc. I mean its not exactly like people prioritize burrow at lair right now over those other things. I'm saying all this as a response to all the people getting a little carried away with how suddenly detection will become suddenly so necessary early on and such nonsense
Wrong. People can call me Terran biased, but you put out the most insane Zerg biased stuff on this forums. Pretending it affects hardly anything...
Here was what I wrote on the official forums and I'll expand on it here:
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"A very arbitrary and un-necessary Zerg buff (reminds me of the queen and overlord speed buff that completely broke TvZ and eventually PvZ as well).
Burrow at hatchery tech is too powerful, and is the most random buff ever. Burrowed lings blocking expansions is already quite strong, this will only make burrowed banes, and expansion blocking even better.
The other problem is, Terran's only reliable detection this early on is rooted into their economy. If you use a scan, that's a mule you do not have to allow you to keep up with the exponential economic growth of Zerg's larva inject.
Protoss would need robo and observers to reliably detect things early on.
Zerg's economic mechanic, larva inject, already is theoretically the most powerful macro mechanic of all three races. Zerg's early game received a very poorly placed and ill thought out buff in wings of liberty, the +2 queen range and overlord speed, which stagnated the metagame a year following it.
Zerg does not need anything else to make them cozier and safer in the early game to allow them to power 70 drones on three bases."
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When it comes down to it, burrow at tier1 is an arbitrary buff to Zerg early game, which already has been arbitrarily buffed in the past. The +2 queen range and overlord speed buff were unnecessary and had long negative lasting impacts on TvZ.
This burrow buff is just as arbitrary and only strengthens Zerg early game even further. The uses of burrow at tier 1 allow even easier defense with burrowed banes, which ends up resulting in an economic hit to the other two races because Terran will have to spend scans rather than mule, and Protoss has to wait for robo for observers.
There are other issues, like essentially being able to cloak all your workers early game from harm, and being able to block Protoss/Terran thirds for free essentially with a burrowed Zergling.
All this does is make Zerg early game even safer with no drawback.
People need to understand that Zerg's macro mechanic, larva inject, grows exponentially while the other two mechanics do not. Zerg theoretically has the best economy in the game, and adding in an arbitrary buff that will potentially make that economy even easier to secure than it already is (after queen range buff) is just a terrible idea.
"It doesn't change anything hardly at all because burrow isn't useful" you say Zelniq? I'm pretty sure every other progamer alive will disagree with you.
I'll just leave people with the end of morrow's last post, so they can understand the actual implications of burrow:
On January 16 2013 03:47 MorroW wrote:
not that it matters but, blizzard saying "burrow t1 to allow for more aggressive play" is not what it would be, burrow at t1 would result in the other races being less aggressive towards the zerg
I'd say that is pretty accurate. It makes the game more of a guessing game early game and makes it so T/P have an even more difficult time doing anything to Zerg early on. And we all know what happens when Zerg can freely hit 70 drones
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EPT
