EPTBurrow at tier 1 - officially! - Page 11
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Riquiz
Netherlands402 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On January 16 2013 03:40 Uni1987 wrote: It puts you in a more awkward position i agree, but it is exactly the situation zerg is in ZvT. We have a fear all the time of, bunker rushes, widow mines, or hellions. I added hellions to that list because I think it's just retarted how there is literally slim to none skill involved, wiping out the zerg eco. It can be handled, but definatly sticks under the category of that "fear" you speak of. And really, how potent will it be? Terrans tend to get an ebay up quite early nowadays.. The point he was trying to make, and still stands, is that you cannot "scout" for where burrowed banes are. You walk over them, you lose the game, and that's it. You can scout for hellions, you can scout for bunker rushes, you can prevent hellions from getting into your base and behind your mineral line unimpeded. There is fear he could be doing a strategy and you aren't scouting for it, then there is the fear that at any point you could lose the game without being able to know beforehand. The second one scares me. If I know that a bunker rush will kill me, then I know I chose a greedy build so I am prepared for the consequences. I don't choose to apply pressure to the zerg, I have to. And if he has burrow, and there is no way I can know where the burrowed banes are, then I could instantly lose all of my marines and the game. That's scary that I could lose the game at any point without having the ability to prevent it. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
Wouldn't getting early burrow with the intention to defend a one base push be choosing a strategy that relies on such a push to occur, which is far from every game and thus a questionable way to open. If no push comes, and you don't use burrow for aggression you would be behind because you could have had drones, queens or earlier lair instead. To me it makes more sense to get burrow before lair with the intention of being at least a bit aggressive or have some other primary purpose than pure defense or ambush. Am I off base here? | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:02 LoveTool wrote: I'm just a casual player, so I genuinely wonder. Wouldn't getting early burrow with the intention to defend a one base push be choosing a strategy that relies on such a push to occur, which is far from every game and thus a questionable way to open. If no push comes, and you don't use burrow for aggression you would be behind because you could have had drones, queens or earlier lair instead. To me it makes more sense to get burrow before lair with the intention of being at least a bit aggressive or have some other primary purpose than pure defense or ambush. Am I off base here? You probably wouldn't get burrow for a one-base push since the research time would be too long. But you could (and this is important, that zerg can, not that zerg necessarily does) get it to stop a two-base pressure, which needs to happen to prevent you from mass droning and overwhelming the terran. Now, terran has to fear that at any point, there could be burrowed banes anywhere. So does the terran waste scans, making the push into an all-in since they have no economy to fall back on, or do they take a huge risk of walking over a baneling mine and losing their entire army for basically free, which can be game ending. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:02 LoveTool wrote: I'm just a casual player, so I genuinely wonder. Wouldn't getting early burrow with the intention to defend a one base push be choosing a strategy that relies on such a push to occur, which is far from every game and thus a questionable way to open. If no push comes, and you don't use burrow for aggression you would be behind because you could have had drones, queens or earlier lair instead. To me it makes more sense to get burrow before lair with the intention of being at least a bit aggressive or have some other primary purpose than pure defense or ambush. Am I off base here? no what your saying is right. getting burrow too early in hopes of punishing something is just like over committing blindly to units hoping your opponent is about to attack. it will give you fewer wins than losses you never want to be too safe in this game. however in the standard meta game zergs are "forced" to get certain defenses to deflect hellions, respond to marine attacks or gateway attacks etc. like how you get 4 roaches initially at 8 minutes and make more if toss actually is attacking. or how you get 12-24 lings to prevent runbys and random stuff, and if terran is attacking. you have just the right time to build up more army. im not talking about rushing out burrow to hurt your economy, i talk about investing in burrow to be out in about the same time your other safety net units would be out. see it as like, you add on an extra 100 100 and you have the potential not to just deflect an attack, but to crush it completely. and with your opponent knowing this possibility it will become less frequent that he chooses to apply pressure or attack you because he doesnt want to get crushed - which results in you making more drones in most of your games. the game of guessing increases drastically | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On January 15 2013 07:31 Infernal_dream wrote: The regen needs to be researched at t2 as well so you're not fighting super regen roaches or burrow move ones that early. Even without the upgrade, roaches have accelerated regen when burrowed. Just not as accelerated. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On January 16 2013 03:06 MorroW wrote: This is immediately what I thought of when I read through this thread. It won't really be possible for Protoss to pressure Zerg or kill workers anymore. 7-gate/8-gate all-ins will be very weak and even more of a coinflip because the zerg won't lose workers or units if they burrow. DT harass will be useless. warp-prism harass will be useless unless accompanied by an observer. Stargate harass outside of Oracles (which are already limited by energy) will be useless. Protoss can basically never harass the Zerg mineral line without an observer or oracle. And if Zerg goes roach or roach/ling all-in and skips zergling speed in favour of burrow, once they target down any cannons at the natural they basically won't lose any roaches if they burrow properly. Early burrow forces Protoss into a situation similar to how they were against Terran for parts of early WoL where they had to go for a relatively fast robo for observers or run the risk of losing to one banshee. It forces Protoss down tech paths and I thought that was what Blizzard was trying to get away from.kind of all from my own perspective what i said so far. but thinking as a protoss for a moment here, wouldnt having burrow in time for any single gateway pressure be kind of broken? all lovely 8 minute timings with 3-4 gate pressure, or massive gateway allins all seem so incredibly weak to do. and without those threats being very relevant, it allows for a lot more drones helping them later on I don't play Terran anymore but it seems like it might be worse for them because of how amazing burrowed banelings are against marines and how vulnerable Terran is if caught off guard for even a second. It would shut down marine/tank timings really hard. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On January 15 2013 23:00 Zelniq wrote: I don't think you all realize that this change wouldn't affect hardly anything. Not because burrow isn't useful, there's just so many more important things to get. In the early game, are you really going to spend your relatively low resources on Burrow rather than ling speed, +1 attack, or Lair? Or prioritize it over queens? Or drones, or units/buildings for defense, banenest/roach warren, units for an attack, expansions.. The thing about burrow people don't realize is that in most every case, you're not going to be getting it over these other things that are generally more vital and helpful. Yes you should eventually get it cus its useful, but how often is it going to be a core part of your opening, more important than those upgrades I mentioned? You don't exactly have a ton of resources to just spend on whatever you like, especially as lair finishes you'll be needing resources for whichever lair tech, like roach speed, bane speed, spire, infestor pit, etc. I mean its not exactly like people prioritize burrow at lair right now over those other things. I'm saying all this as a response to all the people getting a little carried away with how suddenly detection will become suddenly so necessary early on and such nonsense It isn't about Burrow becoming a part of the standard 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds but the potential harassment and all ins it threatens from more aggressive build orders like 10 Spawning Pool or 11 Spawning Pool that can afford to take gas on either 14 or 18, build their first 2 Queens incrementally or build their first set of Zerglings faster. Even some of the 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds that stop at 2 Queens in order to apply pressure or a tier 1 all in can probably make use of Burrow to either sustain the attack or transition out of it. Sometimes the threat of something is more important than the presence and not everybody heads for a macro game with Zerg, more options are never a bad thing. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:13 Demonhunter04 wrote: Even without the upgrade, roaches have accelerated regen when burrowed. Just not as accelerated. Stalkers can always regenrate shields, and terran don't spend minerals on mules. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
My major concern is how we'd pressure zerg as protoss, but while burrow might help defend a tiny bit, and it might prevent drone kills, they'd still lose the hatchery. More importantly, paying the money for burrow to have it done on time for a 4 gate +1 zealot timing or some early pressure will cut your unit count a bit because of how much extra gas you have to mine. Edit: Ehhh, the more I think about it, the more I feel like they'd have to make changes to the upgrade itself, like it's research time or cost, to compensate for how much earlier it comes out now, so you might as well leave it on lair. | ||
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Chronos.
United States805 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:16 MoonCricket wrote: It isn't about Burrow becoming a part of the standard 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds but the potential harassment and all ins it threatens from more aggressive build orders like 10 Spawning Pool or 11 Spawning Pool that can afford to take gas on either 14 or 18, build their first 2 Queens incrementally or build their first set of Zerglings faster. Even some of the 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds that stop at 2 Queens in order to apply pressure or a tier 1 all in can probably make use of Burrow to either sustain the attack or transition out of it. Sometimes the threat of something is more important than the presence and not everybody heads for a macro game with Zerg, more options are never a bad thing. i dont think burrow allin or harass is so strong that it makes people so afraid of it and as for burrow stopping 7/8 gate allins..well you can already do that just by making units if you know it's coming too, and be so far ahead..i dont get what's the problem of having a strong defense vs an allin. it's not like people will always go burrow every game and that'll just suddenly make the allin terrible | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:17 Existor wrote: Stalkers can always regenrate shields, and terran don't spend minerals on mules. Your argument has no merit to it whatsoever, but I have to point out this: You pay 150 minerals for a MULE that mines as fast as 4 SCVs. If the Terran player ever uses the orbital for things other than MULEs, he's getting less than 4 SCV's worth from MULE drops. The things that make MULEs good are its other benefits: the fact that it takes 30 seconds to get a unit that mines as fast as 4 SCVs instead of using 68 seconds of time on the CC, that MULEs can stack on patches with SCVs, and that when killed, the MULE "respawns" within 90 seconds (assuming the Terran drops it again asap). As for stalkers, well, they're balanced to account for shield regen. I don't know if you assumed that I was claiming this burrow change is too strong or something....I wasn't taking any stance on the matter because it's silly to do that without playing out the scenario repeatedly. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On January 15 2013 07:59 ineversmile wrote: So now we need detection to build a Nexus against a zerg without lair tech? EDIT: I mean, it's a nice idea...I just think that there might be some problems with blocking expansions with a 25 mineral, 1/2 larva cloaked unit. We build cannons anyway. Honestly, anything that changes the Zerg from the turtle race to, I dunno, anything else would be awesome. I love early game microbattles, I'm cool with Zerg getting more early game opportunities for aggression. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:14 Ben... wrote: This is immediately what I thought of when I read through this thread. It won't really be possible for Protoss to pressure Zerg or kill workers anymore. 7-gate/8-gate all-ins will be very weak and even more of a coinflip because the zerg won't lose workers or units if they burrow. DT harass will be useless. warp-prism harass will be useless unless accompanied by an observer. Stargate harass outside of Oracles (which are already limited by energy) will be useless. Protoss can basically never harass the Zerg mineral line without an observer or oracle. And if Zerg goes roach or roach/ling all-in and skips zergling speed in favour of burrow, once they target down any cannons at the natural they basically won't lose any roaches if they burrow properly. Early burrow forces Protoss into a situation similar to how they were against Terran for parts of early WoL where they had to go for a relatively fast robo for observers or run the risk of losing to one banshee. It forces Protoss down tech paths and I thought that was what Blizzard was trying to get away from. I don't play Terran anymore but it seems like it might be worse for them because of how amazing burrowed banelings are against marines and how vulnerable Terran is if caught off guard for even a second. It would shut down marine/tank timings really hard. Well, damn. You've got a point. Early pressure timings are my favorite playstyle, and WOW it would suck if they just were negated by burrow. Or you spend the money to drop chargelots and "lol, burrow". | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
Overlord speed + poop creep at evo/hatch tech would had been so much more helpful than this, and so much more interesting too imo. Fail blizzard, fail! a little edit..: it may impacts the game indirectly because allins of opponents will be more coinflip than they are now. But seriously, i dont think the metagame will be affected by that. Its like i said just too much of an investment, i doubt that high level players will go for something like that. The only new thing will be roach attacks with maybe slow slings and instead of the lingspeed burrow. But honestly, would you rather bank on you sniping the opponents detection or follow your allin up with tons of fast speedlings? Even going allin, i would still prefer lingspeed. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On January 16 2013 05:16 Seiniyta wrote: Although it might be broken it would be fun to see how it plays out though. If they dont lower the costs i would bet money we wont see how it "plays" out :-P | ||
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Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
What HotS needs is more interesting harass options, not more defensive options that will once in a blue moon be used to pressure. Otherwise you're just replicating WoL where everything comes down to endgame compositions, leading to the same balance issues and the same snoozefest when watching all over. | ||
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