EPTBurrow at tier 1 - officially! - Page 9
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Tsubbi
Germany7979 Posts
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On January 15 2013 23:03 BronzeKnee wrote: Guess so. This is purely a defensive change. Gateway timings will really suffer since the MSC lost detection. Zerg will be able to burrow Queens and Drones to save them against air attacks. If Blizzard doesn't want early aggression to be viable, then it is time for them to start everyone with 2 bases, 32 workers, and some basic buildings. There is no reason to waste the time of Master League players, because some dumb is cheese is viable in Gold. Except that burrow will become a tool that will straight up stop Gateway timings with burrowed Roaches. So you scout the 7 Gate, and now it doesn't work at all, allowing the Zerg to be more greedy. I still think the response to early air aggression will be to get more Queens to defend rather than get this upgrade. Burrow will allow you to 'save' whatever Queens and drones you have, but that gives the attacker free reign over any tech structures. It'll buy you time to get more Queens, but for that you need more minerals which means having some drones exposed to be killed anyway. | ||
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MirageTaN
Singapore871 Posts
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
On January 15 2013 19:16 InVerno wrote: nothing to do with normal mobile detection like raven and overseers. And with this burrow change, gate expand is pretty dead like everything not involving a robo. I don't see how burrow change has a huge disadvantage for Zerg to prevent toss from taking their third. Toss usually take their third usually pass 9 min mark, that's already pass the early game stage. By then, toss has obs out already. It is a waste of 100 gas to spend on burrow just so a Zerg can burrow a zergling to deny a third. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
On January 15 2013 23:30 BigRedDog wrote: I don't see how burrow change has a huge disadvantage for Zerg to prevent toss from taking their third. Toss usually take their third usually pass 9 min mark, that's already pass the early game stage. By then, toss has obs out already. It is a waste of 100 gas to spend on burrow just so a Zerg can burrow a zergling to deny a third. It would be funny though to put a pair of banelings at the possible expansions of a Protoss and as the probes are transfering. Boom :D | ||
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mec
Sweden192 Posts
On January 15 2013 22:59 VieuxSinge wrote: Was just pointing out that if you have to use a scan early game to kill 8 drones, then it's pointless to harass and risk losing your helions. Scan could have earned you 270 minerals (very needed early game). If you use your scan for something else, you just lose 270 minerals. Period. But i see you are focused on the wrong part of my post, the point I was trying to make waas this one : And how much could 8 drones have earned the zerg? Its a flawled logic you are using that the scan is a loss of minirals when its in fact something completely different. I dont care about the rest of the post, im just trying to fix this logic that every terran player is trying to use as a excuse to be greedy. If a scan costs you 270 minirals, how much does it cost to build buildings for the zerg in the long run? | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On January 15 2013 21:29 mec wrote: I just love this math! At first you say that you lose 270 minirals when you scan (how do you actually lose something you never had?) and then you compare 8 hellions with 16 drones. Not taking into account what you just said, lost mining time on those drones from that point and forward. Well I really LOVE your argument implying, well JUST SCAN AWAY who needs mule's??11 You won't lose any minerals LOL. I guess you've NEVER EVER played terran because you REALLY need mules to keep up in economy vs the other races. Zerg can just build a huge amount of workers in a short time. Protos can speed up worker production. Terran NEEDS mules mining in the early-game you can't just scan here and there and hey also over here. | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
However, if the research time is too long then Zergs would probably use it more as a defensive tool and use their lair tech units to attack (possibly with burrow?). | ||
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Herect
Brazil216 Posts
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schwarzer
Argentina25 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 15 2013 23:48 PanzerElite wrote: Well I really LOVE your argument implying, well JUST SCAN AWAY who needs mule's??11 You won't lose any minerals LOL. I guess you've NEVER EVER played terran because you REALLY need mules to keep up in economy vs the other races. Zerg can just build a huge amount of workers in a short time. Protos can speed up worker production. Terran NEEDS mules mining in the early-game you can't just scan here and there and hey also over here. No his arguement does not imply what you wrote. You should read it again. His point is that a scan does not cost 270minerals. Just like 2zerglings built at 5mins in a 15min game does not cost 400minerals extra. (because that's what you mine in those 10mins with a drone that you could build instead of the zergling). Noone here denies that scaning instead of muling is bad for Terran economy. Upgrading burrow and building aggressive units instead of drones is the same for zerg economy. | ||
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ultrakiss
97 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
Burrowed lings / roaches with tier 1 tech is okay, but burrowed banelings should be tier 2 tech for sure. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 16 2013 00:51 Bahajinbo wrote: Don't like that idea. Burrowed banelings with roaches in the early game? Way too strong. Burrowed lings / roaches with tier 1 tech is okay, but burrowed banelings should be tier 2 tech for sure. I'd say burrowed banelings being teir one is fine. It's no difference to widow mines coming out around that time too. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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mec
Sweden192 Posts
On January 15 2013 23:48 PanzerElite wrote: Well I really LOVE your argument implying, well JUST SCAN AWAY who needs mule's??11 You won't lose any minerals LOL. I guess you've NEVER EVER played terran because you REALLY need mules to keep up in economy vs the other races. Zerg can just build a huge amount of workers in a short time. Protos can speed up worker production. Terran NEEDS mules mining in the early-game you can't just scan here and there and hey also over here. And they still don't get it? Amazing. | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On January 15 2013 07:27 blade55555 wrote: Yeah burrow drones when 8 hellions go into them, then a scan and their dead anyway  .Honestly with how hard terran counters early game harass by zerg now (widow mines + free siege tank upgrade) this is a nice change that might bring some more early game harassment :D Terran is not likely to have a scan that early. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
There is no way any reasonable person can think this is overpowered. Burrow won't work with any standard build. Like Zelniq said, this changes nothing. The only impact it may have is for some builds specifically designed around burrow. Maybe some roach timing. The point is, teching to burrow for defense is stupid. Maybe there's a couple scenarios where burrow is worth it, but you know what else you can make instead? Roaches. Banelings. Queens. All of those will help you actually defend instead of losing marginally less in case you're overrun, and are much more solid and cheap options if you want a macro game. So many arguments in this thread make absolutely no sense, come on guys... | ||
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