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On January 17 2013 02:07 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 00:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 16 2013 04:39 Zelniq wrote:On January 16 2013 04:16 MoonCricket wrote:On January 15 2013 23:00 Zelniq wrote:
I don't think you all realize that this change wouldn't affect hardly anything. Not because burrow isn't useful, there's just so many more important things to get.
In the early game, are you really going to spend your relatively low resources on Burrow rather than ling speed, +1 attack, or Lair? Or prioritize it over queens? Or drones, or units/buildings for defense, banenest/roach warren, units for an attack, expansions.. The thing about burrow people don't realize is that in most every case, you're not going to be getting it over these other things that are generally more vital and helpful. Yes you should eventually get it cus its useful, but how often is it going to be a core part of your opening, more important than those upgrades I mentioned?
You don't exactly have a ton of resources to just spend on whatever you like, especially as lair finishes you'll be needing resources for whichever lair tech, like roach speed, bane speed, spire, infestor pit, etc. I mean its not exactly like people prioritize burrow at lair right now over those other things. I'm saying all this as a response to all the people getting a little carried away with how suddenly detection will become suddenly so necessary early on and such nonsense It isn't about Burrow becoming a part of the standard 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds but the potential harassment and all ins it threatens from more aggressive build orders like 10 Spawning Pool or 11 Spawning Pool that can afford to take gas on either 14 or 18, build their first 2 Queens incrementally or build their first set of Zerglings faster. Even some of the 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool builds that stop at 2 Queens in order to apply pressure or a tier 1 all in can probably make use of Burrow to either sustain the attack or transition out of it. Sometimes the threat of something is more important than the presence and not everybody heads for a macro game with Zerg, more options are never a bad thing. i dont think burrow allin or harass is so strong that it makes people so afraid of it and as for burrow stopping 7/8 gate allins.. well you can already do that just by making units if you know it's coming too, and be so far ahead..i dont get what's the problem of having a strong defense vs an allin. it's not like people will always go burrow every game and that'll just suddenly make the allin terrible But that is exactly the point! Zerg can already stop any kind of aggression that can be thrown at them by reacting correctly, so why do they even stronger defense against many all-ins? Shouldn't there be some skill required too when holding them? Especially with Burrowed Banelings versus Terran, the luck involved will be pretty ridiculous. If Terran scans and picks off a bunch of Banelings or doesn't walk over the Banelings they could straight up win. If Terran doesn't scan and walks over the Banes, they would simply lose. In a lot of ways, this is like the MSC spell Photon Overcharge (or Purify or whatever it is called, they keep changing the name). Protoss could already stop the pushes it helps out against just fine, and those pushes required skill to stop. Now if you see a 2 rax (tech lab/reactor 2 rax expand) coming, you hit one button and your Nexus is perfectly safe. It is skilless and reduces the variety of the game. And as a Protoss player I hate it. I don't want to play a macro game, every game, with the same stupid unit combinations, and building the same defenses at the same drop locations every game... it gets dull really quick, especially when the 15-20 minute game is decided by one 10 second engagement where if either side makes one small micro mistake they lose. I see the same thing happening here to a lesser extent with Burrow. This change further reduces the viability of many all-ins, and we both know the result isn't that they will be easier to hold, the result if that people won't do said all-ins anymore, and the variety of viable builds has just been reduced. As you said, Zerg can already hold the 7 Gate, so why does it need to be strengthened against it? Less variety is bad and leads to boredom. Unless there is some all-in or pressure timing that is crippling Zerg here that I don't know about (and based on recent tournament results, Zerg is flourishing), I don't see why this change needs to happen. First of all, it should be far easier to stop toss all ins when they get completely scouted. The immo sentry all in is the best example of this, as even pros know it's coming for sure and still lose even though they make the right units with very good macro. When all ins get scouted the defender should always have a big advantage, meaning all ins from toss should be far riskier than they are now. Simple pressure builds are way underused by toss, as is harass builds, simply because toss all ins are far too strong. You talk about macro games as if they all go the same way, which I guess they do most of the time because players in general are too slow to pull off 2+ location harass builds. I still remember Grubby using 2 warp prisms and a pylon to hit 3 locations at once for 5 minutes while taking a fourth and building a main army behind it. So if macro games are getting dull for you it's because you and the people you're playing aren't creative enough with your builds or are simply too slow to execute more creative play. And btw I'm not saying I do play fast enough to do those things either, but added variety will come with player development, and really good all ins are bad for the game.
The immortal sentry is the only example of hard to stop all-in after scouting. If you scout protoss doing any other all-in (at a decent time of course), it is very easy to stop (I think this is the reason protoss is struggling in the GSL, they have run out of new unique all-ins to "trick" zerg with. Maybe that is why Huk was able to get in, no one knows his set of all-ins he will try).
In WoL (MsC with TP will change this), you cannot do simple pressure builds. It's not because all-ins are too stong, it's because a simple pressure build is all-in. If you attack with just gateway units, you will get destroyed by a round of lings. You have to bring sentries to not lose every unit, but sentries are slow and expensive and you cannot lose them. The sentries cannot retreat, so if you do a pressure build, you better win the game with it because you cannot afford to lose the sentries.
Yes, there are exceptions, for example some people will do early zealot attacks. If zerg is diligent and knows this is coming, it is shut down so painfully easy that it is way too risky to do consistently. But again, zealots are slow, you do not retreat with the 500-800 mineral army in the early game. That's huge, you need huge damage to even consider it worth it.
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I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups.
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On January 17 2013 02:51 LavaLava wrote:
I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups.
I can see burrow roaches being used to thwart Terran and Protoss FE by having the roaches peck away at a pylon/forge/bunker/depot and the. Burrowing the roaches that are injured and having them resurface. It definitely seems like it could provide a decent means for Zerg to cost effectively harass/punish FE without having to go all in like it is right now.
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This should change some early game zerg builds woohoo!
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On January 17 2013 03:11 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:51 LavaLava wrote:
I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups. I can see burrow roaches being used to thwart Terran and Protoss FE by having the roaches peck away at a pylon/forge/bunker/depot and the. Burrowing the roaches that are injured and having them resurface. It definitely seems like it could provide a decent means for Zerg to cost effectively harass/punish FE without having to go all in like it is right now.
Wouldn't that depend on the construction of the map? Narrow choked naturals would be covered by cannons and potentially high ground so being able to burrow there might not really do any good.
Also, this is all presuming they don't alter the research time if they move it down a tier. If made longer it might not be able to accomplish as much as you'd might expect.
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This just reminds me so much of the queen patch.
Zerg should have easier time vs hellion opening (lol) and better scouting -> zerg becomes untouchable early game
Zerg should have more offensive capabilities early -> zerg becomes more untouchable early game
meanwhile they forget about the late game problems terran have that desperately need addressing in HotS.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:11 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:51 LavaLava wrote:
I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups. I can see burrow roaches being used to thwart Terran and Protoss FE by having the roaches peck away at a pylon/forge/bunker/depot and the. Burrowing the roaches that are injured and having them resurface. It definitely seems like it could provide a decent means for Zerg to cost effectively harass/punish FE without having to go all in like it is right now.
I think you are underestimating 1) The cost of Burrow and it's effect on the strength of an early rush 2) the time it would take to get Burrow AFTER you make your 2 Queens, and the lateness of these rushes and 3) the ability for players to scout this very early on and react accordingly.
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Burrowed banes only thing I see being difficult to balance. Roaches regen should still be calculable (no moving) and lings to stop expands is meh.
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Yeah I really think this would be a horrible change. There is way too much early potential for it and on top of it like people said you can save all your stuff via burrow unless there is detection. Heck Protoss have already been complaining a ton of the NEED to go robotics tech every game which lowers play diversity. Should this also be the case against Zerg?! Especially considering the Zerg is the race that if they know what your doing they get a huge advantage because they can produce drones and units directly according to your build. The last thing I want is to have to go robo tech every game considering it's the most boring of all the options available.
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On January 17 2013 03:53 Berailfor wrote:
Yeah I really think this would be a horrible change. There is way too much early potential for it and on top of it like people said you can save all your stuff via burrow unless there is detection. Heck Protoss have already been complaining a ton of the NEED to go robotics tech every game which lowers play diversity. Should this also be the case against Zerg?! Especially considering the Zerg is the race that if they know what your doing they get a huge advantage because they can produce drones and units directly according to your build. The last thing I want is to have to go robo tech every game considering it's the most boring of all the options available.
I seem to remember something about the oracle detecting for a time. I hate opening robo as much as anyone else, so I think I WOULD agree if that were actually the case, when it's not anymore.
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On January 17 2013 03:58 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:53 Berailfor wrote:
Yeah I really think this would be a horrible change. There is way too much early potential for it and on top of it like people said you can save all your stuff via burrow unless there is detection. Heck Protoss have already been complaining a ton of the NEED to go robotics tech every game which lowers play diversity. Should this also be the case against Zerg?! Especially considering the Zerg is the race that if they know what your doing they get a huge advantage because they can produce drones and units directly according to your build. The last thing I want is to have to go robo tech every game considering it's the most boring of all the options available. I seem to remember something about the oracle detecting for a time. I hate opening robo as much as anyone else, so I think I WOULD agree if that were actually the case, when it's not anymore.
Oracle does in fact detect cloaked units right now
It was switched to the MSC, then put back on the oracle recently.
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On January 17 2013 04:19 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:58 Mortal wrote:On January 17 2013 03:53 Berailfor wrote:
Yeah I really think this would be a horrible change. There is way too much early potential for it and on top of it like people said you can save all your stuff via burrow unless there is detection. Heck Protoss have already been complaining a ton of the NEED to go robotics tech every game which lowers play diversity. Should this also be the case against Zerg?! Especially considering the Zerg is the race that if they know what your doing they get a huge advantage because they can produce drones and units directly according to your build. The last thing I want is to have to go robo tech every game considering it's the most boring of all the options available. I seem to remember something about the oracle detecting for a time. I hate opening robo as much as anyone else, so I think I WOULD agree if that were actually the case, when it's not anymore. Oracle does in fact detect cloaked units right now It was switched to the MSC, then put back on the oracle recently.
Well then, as I thought, both SG and Robo openings have viability and won't just get outright shit on by burrow/stealth.
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On January 17 2013 03:39 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:11 sagefreke wrote:On January 17 2013 02:51 LavaLava wrote:
I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups. I can see burrow roaches being used to thwart Terran and Protoss FE by having the roaches peck away at a pylon/forge/bunker/depot and the. Burrowing the roaches that are injured and having them resurface. It definitely seems like it could provide a decent means for Zerg to cost effectively harass/punish FE without having to go all in like it is right now. I think you are underestimating 1) The cost of Burrow and it's effect on the strength of an early rush 2) the time it would take to get Burrow AFTER you make your 2 Queens, and the lateness of these rushes and 3) the ability for players to scout this very early on and react accordingly.
1. Burrow can be taken in place of ling speed since they are the same cost.
2. There's nothing saying you cant research burrow after getting 2 queens out or even just making both queens on one hatch while researching burrow on one. For that matter theres nothing saying the Zerg cabt start off with one queen on 2 hatch and use te other 150 for the warren. We honestly don't know the possibilities yet until this is actually implemented
3. Scouting can be denied like always.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
They must make burrowed units visible. Maybe a small effect, like when infestors/roaches are burrow moving or small ground crack
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On January 17 2013 04:39 Existor wrote:
They must make burrowed units visible. Maybe a small effect, like when infestors/roaches are burrow moving or small ground crack
Yeah. That would make a lot of sense. Especially as Infestors can cast IT underground.
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On January 17 2013 04:33 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:39 ZjiublingZ wrote:On January 17 2013 03:11 sagefreke wrote:On January 17 2013 02:51 LavaLava wrote:
I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups. I can see burrow roaches being used to thwart Terran and Protoss FE by having the roaches peck away at a pylon/forge/bunker/depot and the. Burrowing the roaches that are injured and having them resurface. It definitely seems like it could provide a decent means for Zerg to cost effectively harass/punish FE without having to go all in like it is right now. I think you are underestimating 1) The cost of Burrow and it's effect on the strength of an early rush 2) the time it would take to get Burrow AFTER you make your 2 Queens, and the lateness of these rushes and 3) the ability for players to scout this very early on and react accordingly. 1. Burrow can be taken in place of ling speed since they are the same cost. 2. There's nothing saying you cant research burrow after getting 2 queens out or even just making both queens on one hatch while researching burrow on one. For that matter theres nothing saying the Zerg cabt start off with one queen on 2 hatch and use te other 150 for the warren. We honestly don't know the possibilities yet until this is actually implemented 3. Scouting can be denied like always.
Yeah, especially if you are doing Roach pressure, you won't miss that extra larva nearly as badly.
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On January 17 2013 04:33 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:39 ZjiublingZ wrote:On January 17 2013 03:11 sagefreke wrote:On January 17 2013 02:51 LavaLava wrote:
I can't wait to see pre-burrowmove roaches being burrow micro'd in early aggression. I think that's the most powerful use of this tech. Roaches have a moderately higher burrowed regeneration rate even without tunneling claws, but I never felt like that was featured very often in WoL.
I think we'll see timings with an inherently slow and methodical, yet powerful attack. It's always good when you have units creeping their way up to a position in a strategic way, instead of just nom-nom-noming at breakneck speed.
I like the idea of having essentially 5 levels of roach aggression that actually play somewhat differently, and actually happen at much different timings. Naked, Burrow, Tunneling, Speed, Full-Ups. I can see burrow roaches being used to thwart Terran and Protoss FE by having the roaches peck away at a pylon/forge/bunker/depot and the. Burrowing the roaches that are injured and having them resurface. It definitely seems like it could provide a decent means for Zerg to cost effectively harass/punish FE without having to go all in like it is right now. I think you are underestimating 1) The cost of Burrow and it's effect on the strength of an early rush 2) the time it would take to get Burrow AFTER you make your 2 Queens, and the lateness of these rushes and 3) the ability for players to scout this very early on and react accordingly. 1. Burrow can be taken in place of ling speed since they are the same cost. 2. There's nothing saying you cant research burrow after getting 2 queens out or even just making both queens on one hatch while researching burrow on one. For that matter theres nothing saying the Zerg cabt start off with one queen on 2 hatch and use te other 150 for the warren. We honestly don't know the possibilities yet until this is actually implemented 3. Scouting can be denied like always.
1. If burrow is taken in place of ling speed it's even easier to scout it, you just scout the lack of 3rd, which imply that he's taking his gas, and see that he doesnt have ling speed at the usual timing through Xel'naga.
2. I dont see anything wrong with that, but burrow still take a full 100 seconds to complete
3. If you cut zergling speed scouting cannot be denied
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On January 17 2013 04:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 04:39 Existor wrote:
They must make burrowed units visible. Maybe a small effect, like when infestors/roaches are burrow moving or small ground crack Yeah. That would make a lot of sense. Especially as Infestors can cast IT underground.
You can already see burrowed units as they move. I'm not sure if you can see if it they are still however. I would only make it slightly more visible as I do like the surprise effect. Knowing where a burrowed unit is without detectoin (even if you can't attack it directly) is kind of lame.
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On January 17 2013 06:09 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 04:45 Big J wrote:On January 17 2013 04:39 Existor wrote:
They must make burrowed units visible. Maybe a small effect, like when infestors/roaches are burrow moving or small ground crack Yeah. That would make a lot of sense. Especially as Infestors can cast IT underground. You can already see burrowed units as they move. I'm not sure if you can see if it they are still however. I would only make it slightly more visible as I do like the surprise effect. Knowing where a burrowed unit is without detectoin (even if you can't attack it directly) is kind of lame.
Yes you see them. But as you say, not very well. Of course, the purpose of something cloaked is to not be visible and I wouldn't mind if they made static cloaked units (like not moving observers) completely unblurry - observers that get spoted even though they are not moving is really lame imo...
Basically, they should just add a little more visibility to burrow movements. It's right now too hard to spot in my opinion.
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On January 17 2013 03:58 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:53 Berailfor wrote:
Yeah I really think this would be a horrible change. There is way too much early potential for it and on top of it like people said you can save all your stuff via burrow unless there is detection. Heck Protoss have already been complaining a ton of the NEED to go robotics tech every game which lowers play diversity. Should this also be the case against Zerg?! Especially considering the Zerg is the race that if they know what your doing they get a huge advantage because they can produce drones and units directly according to your build. The last thing I want is to have to go robo tech every game considering it's the most boring of all the options available. I seem to remember something about the oracle detecting for a time. I hate opening robo as much as anyone else, so I think I WOULD agree if that were actually the case, when it's not anymore.
It isn't permanent detection I thought though? Doesn't it cost energy? If so it doesn't seem a viable option if there is a threat of burrow roaches.
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EPT
