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On January 15 2013 07:50 Existor wrote:
As Zerg I think, that Protoss is okay against this. Both their teching paths will have detection (Observer or Oracle), but what about Terran? He will need to waste scans around the map to see burrowed units, and it's very expensive and shut downs any agression from Terran against Zerg, because he can lose marines against 2-3 banelings.
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Main idea
What about giving Reapers mini-version of Sensor Array, that will spot cloaked and burrowed units with red spots near Reaper? You can chose which unit is better to have this passive ability.
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Explanation how it works
Reaper will recieve a small mobile version of Sensor Array tower. Reaper/Mine will be able to spot with red dots (like Sensor Array tower spotting units in Fog of War) burrowed and cloaked units. It will not detect, just spot with red dots, like Sensor Tower!
Terran players will be able to choose:
- Hm, don't walk here!! Too many red dots, dangerous zone! It may be banelings or zergling/baneling trap!
- I should scan here, looks like I can kill it if I will scan at this place.
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Numbers
Mobile mini-sensor radius can be 6-7 or 10-11 around Reaper. So you will be able to see something burrowed or cloaked at that distance.
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TL;DR
Reapers will recieve passive ability "Mobile Sensor" which grants ability to see burrowed or cloaked units without detecting them.
Well to be honest widow mines + free siege tank make early aggression by zerg not very viable either. It's no different if widow mines are out the zerg needs to be defensive because moving out on the map to be aggressive isn't going to work unless you are lucky and the terran only makes 2.
So early burrow now forces terran to have early game detection as well (missile turret probably at natural so that burrowed units can't stay there).
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 15 2013 08:19 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 07:50 Existor wrote:
As Zerg I think, that Protoss is okay against this. Both their teching paths will have detection (Observer or Oracle), but what about Terran? He will need to waste scans around the map to see burrowed units, and it's very expensive and shut downs any agression from Terran against Zerg, because he can lose marines against 2-3 banelings.
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Main idea
What about giving Reapers mini-version of Sensor Array, that will spot cloaked and burrowed units with red spots near Reaper? You can chose which unit is better to have this passive ability.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation how it works
Reaper will recieve a small mobile version of Sensor Array tower. Reaper/Mine will be able to spot with red dots (like Sensor Array tower spotting units in Fog of War) burrowed and cloaked units. It will not detect, just spot with red dots, like Sensor Tower!
Terran players will be able to choose:
- Hm, don't walk here!! Too many red dots, dangerous zone! It may be banelings or zergling/baneling trap!
- I should scan here, looks like I can kill it if I will scan at this place.
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Numbers
Mobile mini-sensor radius can be 6-7 or 10-11 around Reaper. So you will be able to see something burrowed or cloaked at that distance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR
Reapers will recieve passive ability "Mobile Sensor" which grants ability to see burrowed or cloaked units without detecting them. Well to be honest widow mines + free siege tank make early aggression by zerg not very viable either. It's no different if widow mines are out the zerg needs to be defensive because moving out on the map to be aggressive isn't going to work unless you are lucky and the terran only makes 2. So early burrow now forces terran to have early game detection as well (missile turret probably at natural so that burrowed units can't stay there).
It was outdated quote. I think only Reapers should get that ability. It will be a nice soft-detection that will allow to use Scanner Sweeps more effectively.
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On January 15 2013 08:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
I do not like this idea one bit.
It's intended as a buff to aggressive openings but all this does is increase the power of Zerg defensively.
Early harassment is going to be pointless if Drones are able to burrow which forces out scans and observers. A large number of early game timings are going to be completely shut down by the possibility of Burrowed Banelings from Terran and Roaches that can burrow micro.
It's the same problem I have with the Mothership Core and the Widow Mine, it limits TOO much what can be done in each match up in the early game.
I like that, if the Zerg has burrow and is being harassed by the Terran, the Terran has to make a choice about whether to burn a scan to kill drones or to just back off and take the lost mining time as reward enough. Right now, Zerg needs something early game because it's still vulnerable to all of the old timings it could get killed by (I'm looking at you, Sentry/Immortal... you asshole) in addition to new stuff (WIDOW MINES OMG), so it'll be nice for Zergs to have an additional option at their disposal at a time that actually makes sense.
BTW, the MSC doesn't detect anymore, so make as many Widow Mines against P as you want!
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Sounds good. I think zerg needs something early game. To have HotS coming out with only the viper to look forward to, which means having to play the same early and midgame that we are familiar with over and over, the only difference being that there are numerous new threats, doesn't seem very thrilling.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 15 2013 08:27 Scrubwave wrote:
Terrans will have to just get ravens quicker!
Or they should get sensors with Reapers
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On January 15 2013 08:28 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 08:27 Scrubwave wrote:
Terrans will have to just get ravens quicker! Or they should get sensors with Reapers
no
User was warned for this post
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mines should detect burrowed then.
(note: I didn't say cloaked)
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 15 2013 08:36 zhurai wrote:
mines should detect burrowed then.
Too much new things around new units. Reapers should recieve soft-detection.
On January 15 2013 08:32 Nightshade_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 08:28 Existor wrote:On January 15 2013 08:27 Scrubwave wrote:
Terrans will have to just get ravens quicker! Or they should get sensors with Reapers no
Sensors =\= detectors. Remember sensor tower? It does not detects, but just spots units in fog of war. Same for Reapers spotting burrowed units (not only in fog of war)
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On January 15 2013 08:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
I do not like this idea one bit.
It's intended as a buff to aggressive openings but all this does is increase the power of Zerg defensively.
Early harassment is going to be pointless if Drones are able to burrow which forces out scans and observers. A large number of early game timings are going to be completely shut down by the possibility of Burrowed Banelings from Terran and Roaches that can burrow micro.
It's the same problem I have with the Mothership Core and the Widow Mine, it limits TOO much what can be done in each match up in the early game.
So Blizzard should do nothing and just make all early game Zerg aggression pointless then? Gotcha...
Because after all Zerg can throw out 100/100 early game without sacrificing any econ /sarcasm
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Will be interesting if they actually put it in and how fast they will put it back to t2 again. Or make the time it takes so long you could have gone lair + burrow anyway.
Can't wait for the 100 starting energy on Orbitals though.
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On January 15 2013 08:15 HelloSon wrote:
Zerg is all about greed. You'll fall faaaar behind if you spend 100/100 early game for defensive purposes.
Because no one ever gets zergling speed right which is 100/100 right?
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This is fine, as long as they bring back detection to the mother ship core.
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On January 15 2013 08:49 obsid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 08:15 HelloSon wrote:
Zerg is all about greed. You'll fall faaaar behind if you spend 100/100 early game for defensive purposes. Because no one ever gets zergling speed right which is 100/100 right?
yeah but the queen is building at the same time
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While I think zerg needs something new for the early game, this is definitely not it. All it does is promote passive play, which is the last thing I want as zerg.
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On January 15 2013 08:55 Toads wrote:
yeah but the queen is building at the same time
You are right, I dont expect this to be upgraded until after the first queen is out, and it will likely delay the lair a bit in doing so (and might mean the 4/6 queen strats are less used). But I could see it used probably as an alternative to ling speed (get one or the other but prob not both). If your going into a roach based play, say a roach/hydra or roach/infester mix, then getting this early makes a lot of sense. With ling based play, its possible but not nearly as useful as ling speed. And maybe in ZvT the zerg might get it for early burrowed banelings if he sees bio play.
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On January 15 2013 07:40 baldgye wrote:
so... they never want people to put on early aggression?
Because they will increase the research time, it will be nearly impossible to get reactionary burrow, and it is too expensive to waste money on early game just to be safe. It will only really help zerg when they are executing early attacks, and even there its effectiveness will be limited by, once again, its cost and research time. Moight be nice to have for some of the 2 base roach pushes zvz though.
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On January 15 2013 07:23 blade55555 wrote:Wow that is actually really interesting. I can definitely see some ling traps being set for unsuspecting units in the early early game 
Zerg never dit lings trap and probably wont do it ever.
It's sad because if you unborrow lings on top of marines for example, you come out way better most of the time
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I wonder how good a baneling bust with speed/burrow lings will be against toss. Without MsC detection, the only detection early game is the cannon at the front usually. If you get past or kill that, the zerglings can keep poping up and down attacking pylons/probes etc and I cant see much the toss could do about it. That would be my only worry with this change.
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EPT
