EPTBeta Balance Update #11 (Jan 9, 2013) - Page 44
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NoBanMeAgain
United States194 Posts
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fireforce7
United States334 Posts
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On January 11 2013 02:56 Everlong wrote: See this happens when people rage here and then they actually play the game and realise it's actually not that bad, lol.. :D Not to be offensive, I'm not saying you whining here, but this is what majority people should do before saying shit.. have played 30+ games i play iat gm level of the beta so it varies quite a bit but i play as terran and zerg no cadu == no tvp, the matchup is actually unwinnable now. I think hands down my favorite part though is being time warped from a protoss who doesn't need to build a stargate to get to the spell time warp is on a much better unit now, the ability belonging to oracles was not even close to balnced.. i cannot believe they came up with that idea at blizzard. For a while pvt was > make harass oracles > gain insurmountable lead almost immediately > use time warp later on in a battle and just roflstomp it was very dumb. while i agree that in general, the additional healing was veeery broken in TvZ, it felt fine in TvP. Many protoss even in GM were whining that they keep terrans units alive too long, but basically i think these players are only thinking about situations they can't analyze becuase they are already behind or w/.e.. Cadu made it so, you can lead with ghost and EMP effectively. once they get 5-6 collo its impossible to EMP because of the rate of DPS so you cant "lead" with ghosts. with the healing, it makes it so collo cant zone out ghosts too easily. the reaper changes are very stupid, how about removing the unit instead of trying to make a unit everyone hates except for that faggot you know who goes reaper every game viable in every matchup at the cost of an extremely well developed mirror matchup? you might think reaper rushes are over, but gas first into 2 raxes outside of your base is on it's way, and so far i think i am 100% winrate in tvz/tvt using proxy raxes, into nothing but reapers with no scouting or transitioning because the unit is still extremely broken with regen siege tank upg. removal is the best change of the patch. it buffs harass into 3 CC+siegetank defense builds aginst protoss which was desperately needed, buffs the threat of the 111.. but i really dont know if its still even scary with free hallu making immortals for hardened shields/confusion, purify and the new default timewarp. go into a unit tester, shoot seeker missile at the brood run with brood with the new 5 second launch time broodlords can now escape HSM reliably edit: not trying to be a dick here but basically all of terrans positive changes combined do not equal out what they lose in losing caduceus reactors, like its not even close | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On January 11 2013 03:51 ImANinjaBich wrote: after many new games using the reaper in every matchup its safe to say the reaper isn't the reaper without the bonus dmg to light units. its a weak fragile unit thats great for early scouting but not that great in the midgame. i have had success with reapers combines with proxy factory tho since i don't ahve to research siege tech. I wish they would at least give the reaper back the bonus dmg he could do vs. strucutres again. its still broken with regen, it forces certain reactions in TvT that are not optimal for your tech/econ, can be proxied and now hits even faster | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On January 11 2013 04:00 c0sm0naut wrote: have played 30+ games i play iat gm level of the beta so it varies quite a bit but i play as terran and zerg no cadu == no tvp, the matchup is actually unwinnable now. I think hands down my favorite part though is being time warped from a protoss who doesn't need to build a stargate to get to the spell time warp is on a much better unit now, the ability belonging to oracles was not even close to balnced.. i cannot believe they came up with that idea at blizzard. For a while pvt was > make harass oracles > gain insurmountable lead almost immediately > use time warp later on in a battle and just roflstomp it was very dumb. while i agree that in general, the additional healing was veeery broken in TvZ, it felt fine in TvP. Many protoss even in GM were whining that they keep terrans units alive too long, but basically i think these players are only thinking about situations they can't analyze becuase they are already behind or w/.e.. Cadu made it so, you can lead with ghost and EMP effectively. once they get 5-6 collo its impossible to EMP because of the rate of DPS so you cant "lead" with ghosts. with the healing, it makes it so collo cant zone out ghosts too easily. the reaper changes are very stupid, how about removing the unit instead of trying to make a unit everyone hates except for that faggot you know who goes reaper every game viable in every matchup at the cost of an extremely well developed mirror matchup? you might think reaper rushes are over, but gas first into 2 raxes outside of your base is on it's way, and so far i think i am 100% winrate in tvz/tvt using proxy raxes, into nothing but reapers with no scouting or transitioning because the unit is still extremely broken with regen siege tank upg. removal is the best change of the patch. it buffs harass into 3 CC+siegetank defense builds aginst protoss which was desperately needed, buffs the threat of the 111.. but i really dont know if its still even scary with free hallu making immortals for hardened shields/confusion, purify and the new default timewarp. go into a unit tester, shoot seeker missile at the brood run with brood with the new 5 second launch time broodlords can now escape HSM reliably Thanks for nice feedback.. As for HSM, I think you need to come a bit closer with Raven to make sure it hits. You expose your Ravens to Infestors, but you will hit and kill Broodlords, which is the most important part. I agree that free siege is giving Terran some real macro possibilities. Either with harass or without harass. | ||
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On January 11 2013 04:06 Everlong wrote: Thanks for nice feedback.. As for HSM, I think you need to come a bit closer with Raven to make sure it hits. You expose your Ravens to Infestors, but you will hit and kill Broodlords, which is the most important part. I agree that free siege is giving Terran some real macro possibilities. Either with harass or without harass. The big question I have on the siege mode, is does it open up the possibility to do extremely powerful all-ins? You now have siege mode on your first tank, which also saves you a bunch of gas. It's hard to say since the early game has changed quite a bit too. We'll have to wait and see. | ||
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Gendi2545
South Africa50 Posts
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
On January 11 2013 00:23 LavaLava wrote: If anyone thinks the Siege Mode upgrade removal doesn't address late game TvP mech, you're partially right but mostly wrong. Yeah, Protoss still soft counters tanks with every unit. But the most important aspect of any late game strategy is actually not getting busted and blown to shit before you even take your third. Few people have said it already but here is my take; A better start for terran in this game can lead to a stronger late game. Yes, you can use these new changes to win before 4 base but you have now an option to play a more progressive game. Overall I like the changes. | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
On January 11 2013 04:15 Gendi2545 wrote: I'm sad to see the siege upgrade go. It just seems a little less like SC now Well, it's not like the siege mode went away, only the upgrade for it. Yeah, it was a remnant from bw but you can reconsole yourself with the fact that siegetanks will be a much bigger part of base defense now, since you can get 1 or 2 for defense without having to spend money on the upgrade to make them effective. We will probably see atleast a few siegetanks in just about every terran game now strictly for defense. Pretty great imo. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
Ultimately though I think mech just suffers from a mobility issue. I'd like to see a quicker unsiege time for tanks, to allow a better retreat, a bit of a buff when unsieged, and a slight Thor and tank move speed upgrade. They need to do a better job accounting for the larger maps which was not the original WoL setup. Toss has warp, Zerg has creep, Terran needs that proportional help. I think that is why medivac boost is so appealing. Fun to watch those things zipping all around a big map. For Zerg I'd still like to see hydras gas cost -25 to allow for some different unit combos and the ability to sprinkle in hydras easier and not be so screwed when they melt. Plus allow them to be a better muta answer so that isn't hamstringing infestor changes for fear of breaking zvz. Protoss seems to be doing ok. Lots of options, lots of builds, harassment units, macro mechanic, etc. I still hate collosi as a spectator but guess it isn't going anywhere. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 11 2013 04:55 FLuE wrote: I don't want anything that might help the game limited by brood war nostalgia. Basically all you say is that you are unwilling to learn from the past and take the good bits and improve on them. You rather invent the wheel new every time you need it and are glad to be sold it again and again every season ... It is stupid to ignore Broodwar for the simple reason that you can make valid comparisons to find out what is wrong with SC2 ... and there are certainly LOTS of things wrong with that "newer and better" game. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
Several tweaks could have been done to Cadecus Reactor but weren't even attempted. For example, increasing the research time even more, maybe nerfing the heal per second a bit. Who knows though, maybe the new Hellbat is really good with Bio? | ||
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bankobauss
204 Posts
terrans were forced into never being able to open factory because of the FACT that making a factory, a tech lab, and tanks gave you piss-weak units for the cost. Now making a factory, a techlab, and tanks give you strong units for the cost early game so it makes opening mech viable. I dont think it puts TvT in a bad direction because as if someone tank all-ins you, you can easily get your own defensive tanks too. It will probably make TvT extremely quickly a very fast tankfest based matchup, but to be honest, thats ok, I dont feel TvT is much of an issue as a buff to one side is a buff to the other side, lets focus on the other matchups. In TvZ, the battle hellions plus tanks will be a very big problem. Zergs will definitely be forced to open fast speed every game with possibly a macro hatch and tons of speedlings before going for upgrades/evo chambers (with a 6 minute lair to beat banshees). This siege upgrade removal ESSENTIALLY removes the queen buff, now marine/tank pressure can hit the zerg at 6 minutes outside his natural so instead of the oldschool queen vs hellion situation, your dealing with marines/siegetanks so dayum fast with reactored battle hellions coming soon in TvP, the biggest issue with mech is that "skytoss" is now a thing pros can do effectively, and I feel thats a problem. Skytoss needs to be nerfed, I heavily disagree with the direction of hots protoss. RTS should always be 80% ground focused 20% air focused to be exciting. The biggest problem with zerg for 2 years in WoL was that they were so heavily broodlord focused. The last 2 years of WoL would have been alot more exciting if zerg was air nerfed and ground buffed at release. blizzard is making a mistake if they want "air toss" to be a viable thing for pros to do My idea to fix skytoss and TvP mech is to give thors a 15range anti-air attack (im not joking). This would give mech a fairly immobile, but effective ground based anti-air against skytoss (thors would now food for food defeat skytoss) Next, zerg should probably have the viper removed and add the devourier as a 250/50 upgrade to the mutalisk to create a 350/150 6food extremely powerful anti air unit. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On January 11 2013 05:12 Rabiator wrote: Basically all you say is that you are unwilling to learn from the past and take the good bits and improve on them. You rather invent the wheel new every time you need it and are glad to be sold it again and again every season ... It is stupid to ignore Broodwar for the simple reason that you can make valid comparisons to find out what is wrong with SC2 ... and there are certainly LOTS of things wrong with that "newer and better" game. Why talk about reinventing the wheel when we don't actually want another wheel? | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
The Siege Tech upgrade removed does help a little in the early game, but there is still little to no early aggression you can do with a few tanks that is cost efficient against protoss because when you get there the protoss player will have a MsC, and atleast one immortal or void-ray. In 1v1 Battles the hellbat has become stronger, especially versus stalkers. Sadly it's worse in the lategame against massive amounts of zealots and I've started to lose to zealots remaxes more then pre patch. While it is really nice that the raven got it's AoE back, the 5 seconds cast time is way to long which makes it gimmicky and unlikely to fire off before it's killed, or the targeted units gets away. Overall this hasn't helped my mech play in anyway TvP, man I might actually stop playing SC2, it just makes me depressed lately =/. | ||
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bankobauss
204 Posts
now making a factory/techlab/tanks give you actual strong units so your not forced into bio defense for your expansion. you can still do it though if you desire sc2 tanks are more expensive and weaker than bw tanks, so it kind of makes sense for the upgrade to be free because protoss gets to make powerful immortals immediately from his robo, why cant terrans make powerful tanks immediately from his factory. as for the immortal, I feel people who ACTUALLY test mech will discover immortals are NOT the problem with mech. The problem with mech is a good protoss will go skytoss 100% of the time, and you are forced to mass air units to beat skytoss. My idea to fix mech against skytoss is to give thors 15range anti air attacks. | ||
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Elendur
Canada43 Posts
On January 11 2013 01:37 Arghmyliver wrote: You ever get the feeling Blizz is just dicking around and throwing out all the changes they can think of to test them in a real world play environment? It's like this is a fucking beta or something. Other than the slighly harsh tone, this is a great post if you really think about it.  | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
Edit: Blizzard doesn't understand it. I can proxy tanks now at sub seven minutes, good luck holding that kind of all in. TvT will be an absolute mess with this change. Edit 2: The people that are saying you can open mech for defense in other matchups are way off base. You still can't get more than 1 tank up to defend with before you'd get siege mode, a single tank really isn't very effective at stopping a good all in. Even in current terms, 2-3 tanks was marginal against all ins and you can get 2-3 tanks with siege mode at the same time with or without the upgrade requiring research. The only thing this change allows is a faster starport, or some other use for the Gas that would have otherwise been spent on the upgrade. This does allow for crazy all ins, and that's about it. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Tanks would only become slightly better TvZ and vs bio play. And it would make them more viable against protoss. | ||
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